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September 23, 2005

Provocative ID

Reader Gabriel Sanchez makes some helpful observations in comments posted to yesterday’s blog, Scopes 2005: ID in Federal Court. (His comments come second.)

I also had a provocative conversation with a friend about ID yesterday over lunch. Both Mr. Sanchez’s comments and my friend’s comments have caused me to think more deeply about the issue of ID and school boards, confirming cautions I have read from ID supporters.

Several observations, then about ID, schools, and, now, court cases.

1) Despite our wishes for it to be otherwise, these issues are often determined by political concerns. In a given school jurisdiction, to the extent the teaching of ID, as framed, is put forward as Christians taking back the schools, to that extent it  devolves into a matter of power politics, who has the most votes. Should the district become 51% Muslim, will Islamic science be taught?

2) Since the core ID proponents wish for the discussion of ID to remain within the realm of science, and this is a hard enough task to accomplish, given general peer-resistance to ID, any critique of Darwinism placed with the public school curriculum would seem best served as coming from scientists involved in ID. In other words, given the politics of this hot-button topic, modest ID critiques must be free from religious fingerprints.

3) There is a tangle of legal rulings on church/state issues, some of which were motivated by a secularist ideology. Still, I know my question, “Which religion is being established?” is one to which that the courts are deaf. Establishment clause rulings have broadened establishment, it would seem, to mean anything that favors “religion” in a generic sense. This seems overly restrictive, and problematic in many issues, not the least of which would be whether the government can in any way support chastity programs if the notion of chastity itself is deemed to be based on religious views only, and therefore one that cannot be part of a secular school system.

4) I realize that there are minefields here, and as neither a scientist nor lawyer myself, I have much to learn. Still, as I cited more than a year ago in a blog, “Is Darwinism Beyond Me?” Richard Weaver points out that laymen are capable of asking the right questions:

[I]f men are to be convinced that they are simply the products of evolution, the convincing needs to be done in accordance with the necessary laws of thought. This is merely saying that the layman has the right to ask about the connection between the factual evidence and the conclusion when that connection is not apparent to them. He has the right to ask philosophical questions about the way the facts have been handled and even about whether all of the relevant facts have been taken into consideration.”

As long as ID allowed within any science curricula can modestly present facts, there should be little problem. But politically, and more to the point, humanly speaking because egos are involved, “just the facts” and logic don’t always make for smooth sailing. Just watch court TV.

Posted by James M. Kushiner at 10:17 AM | Permalink

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Mike S and hordes of editorialists say ID is religiously motivated. Major ID proponents like Dembski, Johnson, Behe, and others acknowledge their religious beliefs, yet insist that their science is not driven by their religion. We ought to be askin... [Read More]

Tracked on Sep 26, 2005 8:41:06 AM

Comments

"In other words, given the politics of this hot-button topic, modest ID critiques must be free from religious fingerprints."

This is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, as almost all the major proponents of ID have publicly stated, in multiple forums, their religious motivations for promoting ID. There is a reason for that - ID is religiously motivated, not empirically motivated.

"Establishment clause rulings have broadened establishment, it would seem, to mean anything that favors “religion” in a generic sense."

There's no question that establishment jurisprudence is currently a mess, but ID simply further confuses the issue, since it is religiously motivated metaphysics masquerading as science. It's hard to argue that the courts should lessen their standards for establishment of religion for something as intellectually vacuous as ID.

When Richard Weaver says, "[I]f men are to be convinced that they are simply the products of evolution", what is the word "simply" doing in that sentence? What if you took it out, and said, "If men are to be convinced that their physical bodies are products of evolution"? Then perhaps we could distinguish between the scientific evidence that indicates that this is the case from the philosophical, metaphysical, or theological claims about whether this is all that man is, or whether he is created in the image of God. The primary problem with this debate is that too many people have absorbed the notion that our physical bodies having evolved is incompatible with us also being created by God. But what is the logical basis for this notion? I submit that there is none.

Posted by: Mike S. | Sep 23, 2005 9:28:10 PM

ID proponents should be working from the top down, not the bottom up. They should be pushing to get their theory discussed, not in the public schools, but in the graduate seminars of university biology departments. Convince a few grad students and a professor somewhere that there's enough meat on the theory to warrant some examination at that level. Then when it's established at that level, get it into advanced undergraduate studies. Then into freshman bio.

Why the rush to push something on high school students that will be totally ignored once they get to college?

Posted by: Matthias | Sep 24, 2005 12:46:37 AM

It's a frustrating debate - both sides rightly accusing one another of religious and philosophic motivations - and perhaps we should cut the Gordian knot instead.

Why is it the schools are responsible for teaching any theory of origin at all? If the schools successfully taught children to read, write, and figure, literate young people could go read the assorted competing theories and compare evidence for themselves. (And the incurious could forgo doing so, with no discernible effect on their daily lives.) The conclusions students reached that way would at least be free of the taint of indoctrination.

Posted by: Joe Long | Sep 24, 2005 9:41:54 AM

Why do the schools teach chemistry or physics? For the same reason, they teach biology. And what Newtonian mechanics is to physics, and the laws of thermodynamics are to chemistry, Darwinism is to biology today. If biology is worth teaching, it is worth teaching as biologists understand it.

Posted by: Matthias | Sep 24, 2005 1:04:51 PM

"Why is it the schools are responsible for teaching any theory of origin at all? If the schools successfully taught children to read, write, and figure, literate young people could go read the assorted competing theories and compare evidence for themselves."

Joe, you are seriously overestimating the abilities of high school students. There is no question that better education in general would be a good thing, but one of the things our school systems are bad at is teaching science. Despite what evolutionary critics maintain, science really does require critical thinking skills.

Your phrasing of the issue as one of a "theory of origin" is a point that confuses the discussion. Origins is an imprecise word, and mostly doesn't apply to evolutionary theory. Phrasing it that way tends to lump together all kinds of things that are quite different: biological evolution, the origin of life on earth, the origin of the universe, and various creation narratives from different faiths. Biological evolution is only concerned with the natural history of existing organisms, and not any of the other categories.

Posted by: Mike S. | Sep 24, 2005 7:42:37 PM

Mike S:

"What if you took it out, and said, 'If men are to be convinced that their physical bodies are products of evolution'? Then perhaps we could distinguish between the scientific evidence that indicates that this is the case from the philosophical, metaphysical, or theological claims about whether this is all that man is, or whether he is created in the image of God. The primary problem with this debate is that too many people have absorbed the notion that our physical bodies having evolved is incompatible with us also being created by God. But what is the logical basis for this notion? I submit that there is none."

The basis for this notion comes largely from evolutionists like Dawkins and Dennett. It is also a necessary conclusion from the usual presuppositions of evolutionary science, which is that life is the product of blind, purposeless processes. Theistic evolution is either a brand of ID, with God intervening in the process at key points (as Behe seems to believe), or it is a fancy (or fanciful) way of saying one believes God wasn't involved but he was, both at the same time.

Posted by: Tom Gilson | Sep 25, 2005 9:31:03 PM

"The basis for this notion comes largely from evolutionists like Dawkins and Dennett."

I don't disagree with this statment (in fact, it goes back to Thomas Huxley in Darwin's time), but why would you (or Christians who object to evolution) accept their claims on this matter? Their claims are philosophical in nature, and at the very least debatable, when they aren't outright silly.

"It is also a necessary conclusion from the usual presuppositions of evolutionary science, which is that life is the product of blind, purposeless processes. "

That life is the product of blind, purposeless, processes is only true in a strict biological sense: life that we see today arose via an undirected (blind) process, which did not have a predetermined target that it was shooting for (purposeless). But it does not follow that the laws of nature (which evolution obeys) are themselves the "product" of a blind, purposeless universe. The weather appears to be blind and purposeless, but I presume that doesn't cause you to doubt the existence of God, or to question his character. Why is that? This question about purpose is not a scientific one: it is a metaphysical one. Science can only investigate what the laws of nature are and how they work, it can't tell us why they are the way they are. Thus Dawkins and Dennett make philosophical or metaphysical arguments against the existence of God, which people have been doing (and Christians refuting) since Christ walked on the earth. Evolutionary theory may be a novel tool for them in this regard (which they misuse), but the arguments themselves are very old.

It could be that evolutionary theory is wrong, in which case Dawkins, Dennett, et al. are wrong on two counts, or it could be that they are right on both counts. Or it could be that they are right that evolution happened much as we think it did, but wrong about the metaphysical implications of this. This latter position is one that is systematically ignored by the ID people.

"Theistic evolution is either a brand of ID, with God intervening in the process at key points (as Behe seems to believe), or it is a fancy (or fanciful) way of saying one believes God wasn't involved but he was, both at the same time."

There are two main forms of theistic evolution, which aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The first form is that promoted by Howard Van Till, and is based upon the notion that the universe contained within the laws of nature everything necessary to carry out God's plan for it. Due to our current state of limited knowledge, we can only sketch out in a rough way how the laws of nature led to human beings, but it's a very old theological position, going back to Augustine. The ID position posits that the initial creation was somehow incomplete, and had to be tinkered with along the way. I find this highly unsatisfactory.

The second form emphasizes the fact that God is responsible for all of creation at every moment of its existence. If a random mutation in piece of DNA occurred 50 million years ago that ended up improving the evolutionary fitness of a small mammal, then God was responsible for that. This is no different from claims that God is in control of everything - even when getting battered by a hurricane, Christians are supposed to trust that God is in control and will see him through. There is no artificial distinction between events that God is obviously responsible for and those that are "just" due to chance, or natural laws. ID sets up this artificial distinction between "more important" events, and "chance" events. This, too, I find highly unappealing from a theological perspective.

Posted by: Mike S. | Sep 26, 2005 1:58:23 PM

Mike S. wrote

That life is the product of blind, purposeless, processes is only true in a strict biological sense: life that we see today arose via an undirected (blind) process, which did not have a predetermined target that it was shooting for (purposeless).

How can you determine the truth of these statements even in the "strict biological sense?" They are beyond the scope of science. At best they are an untestable hypothesis.
When I look at life, I do not see purposeless, undirected processes. Children are the result of intentional actions. Many creatures will even sacrifice themselves to improve their offsprings' chances for survival. The continuation of life is central to the existence of living beings. How can your statements contribute to a useful scientific discussion when they ignore such observations.

Posted by: Brian | Sep 28, 2005 8:36:17 AM

"How can you determine the truth of these statements even in the "strict biological sense?" They are beyond the scope of science."

Well, in strictly biological (or more generally, scientific) terms, there is no teleology. Aristotle's science was this way, and it was only after his standards were overthrown that modern science came to fruition. One does not say, as a scientific explanation, that the rock fell down the mountain because it's goal was to get to the bottom of the hill. Likewise, one does not say that the DNA mutated because it's goal was to produce a mouse, or a giraffe, or a human. It may well have been God's plan, and He may well be responsible for the particular mutation in a direct sense (that is, He caused that specific mutation to occur at that specific point in time, in that particular organism), but that is not properly part of a scientific explanation. Interestingly, your argument can be used precisely to refute Intelligent Design: if teleology is beyond the scope of science, than ID must be outside the scope of science, since it's whole point is to detect teleology in nature.

In fact, they are not untestable hypotheses: we can look at mutations, and see whether it is possible for us to predict where a mutation will occur, or what effect it will have on the organism. But we can't predict this, because mutations are stochastic (i.e. random).

To turn the tables, how would you suggest we scientifically test your assertion that when you look at life, you don't see purposelessness? If, as I would hold, we cannot scientifically test this assertion, isn't it reasonable to claim that from a scientific perspective, evolution is an undirected process?

Posted by: Mike S. | Sep 29, 2005 4:31:30 PM

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