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November 21, 2005
Useless Knowledge
A revealing article: The Problem With an Almost-Perfect Genetic World from The New York Times about the new test that detects a child's Downs Syndrome even earlier in pregnancy than the previous test. (My thanks to the Episcopal weblog Titus One Nine for the link.)
According to the article, 80% of parents who find out that their unborn child has the condition abort him, wait, sorry, "terminate their pregnancy." (I have read and been told that the percentage is actually much higher, perhaps even 95%.)
I don't mean to deny the struggles in raising a handicapped child. I know friends whose children suffer various handicaps and they do not have the (relatively) easy time the rest of us enjoy. (Many of us could do a lot more to help them in practical ways, and thus incarnate our pro-life thinking.)
But getting married, as Christians understand marriage, is a promise to have children if one can, and the promise to have a child is the promise to have him, period, and to love him when he arrives, however he arrives. It is a great risk, in some ways, is marriage, but you take the risk when you take the joys.
We had a tiny experience of this. Our last child — a "trailer" or, better, "bonus baby" — was born when my wife was 42. We were told by someone that mothers her age had a one in ten chance of having a child with Downs Syndrome, and I never bothered to find out if this was right, partly, I suppose, because I didn't want to find out that the odds were even worse. At one of her exams, her doctor mentioned the prenatal test to screen for Downs Syndrome, as he was apparently legally bound to do, and she said she would not have it.
There was no point. We were not going to abort our child, however he came to us, but then even parents convinced of their child's right to live can be, almost certainly will be, tempted to abort him if they know he's imperfect. Just imagine the fears your mind will present you: not so much of your own suffering, but of the child's.
And the test itself wasn't safe: it causes some mothers to miscarry and lose their babies, which is a horrible risk to run only to have some information you would not use. We could not risk our child's life.
There was a little pamphlet in the waiting room on the subject, essentially an advertisement for the test. It said that knowing whether your child had Downs Syndrome helped you prepare oneself — it said nothing about abortion — but it doesn't really, it only changes the point at which one learns, and there is no real advantage in learning that a child has such problems before he is born. With Downs Syndrome, you will have time to adjust before you really need to deal with it practically.
We didn't think there was any advantage, anyway, and we thought it unwise to ask for temptations even when you are sure you would resist them. There are some things the wise man refuses to know.
But many other people do want to know. The Times story includes this revealing quote:
Among the difficult choices facing prospective parents in coming years, genetics researchers say, will be the ability to predict the degree of severity in chromosomal abnormalities like Down syndrome, which can cause mild to moderate retardation.
"Where do you draw the line?" said Mark A. Rothstein, director of the Bioethics Institute at the University of Louisville School of Medicine. "On the one hand we have to view this as a positive in terms of preventing disability and illness. But at what point are we engaging in eugenics and not accepting the normal diversity within a population?"
You will have noticed that he assumes that there is a line to be drawn somewhere in the middle, i.e., that some unborn children can be killed, and that no child has an intrinsic or inalienable right to live. The way he puts the matter establishes at the beginning an ethical system that does not have a high view of human rights. You must satisfy certain criteria to have any right to live.
The problem for Dr. Rothstein is only that at some point killing such children, the benefits of which he has already noted, becomes eugenics. But "preventing disability and illness" by eliminating the disabled and ill is by definition eugenic. Improving the race by eliminating the "unfit" is what the eugenicist does.
Dr. Rothstein is worrying about eugenics while preaching a eugenic doctrine. Kiling the imperfect unborn is for him "a positive," after all.
The article also included a set of statistics that suggest something about what American society thinks most important, or to put it another way, what makes a life worth living:
Women were far more likely to choose abortions for disabilities that have a high probability of affecting cognitive functioning. For conditions that have little or no impact on the quality of life but might require medical or surgical therapy, the abortion rate was 16 percent, but doubled for those likely to cause mental dysfunction.
That intelligence makes life worth living, or a baby's life worth saving, is an idea that easily extends to those for whom it was not originally intended. If the retarded can be aborted because they are retarded, what about those — if a genetic test for inteligence is ever perfected — who are merely on the upper left slope of the Bell Curve as a matter of genetics?
And for that matter, what about those who are merely average, and will grow up to have dull jobs and financial struggles and never appreciate Faulkner or Picasso or Thai food? Why should not concerned parents spare them such a life, if intelligence is so important?
We are only prevented from having average children aborted by ambitious parents because we cannot predict a child's intelligence by prenatal testing. Pray God we shall never be able to. But many Americans have already accepted the principle that parents may abort the child who if born would grow up to check out their groceries or mow their lawn, if the Times report is right. They won't put it that way, of course, but that is what their choices say.
That is where all such utilitarian arguments lead, that establish the value of a man's life on some estimate of its quality or worth. If the average American does not approve of killing the unborn child of slightly below average intelligence, if he, arbitrarily, thinks one life worth ending and another life tenor twenty points up the IQ scale somehow protected, as Dr. Rothstein seems to do, he does not stop there because he has any reason to.
It is a social prejudice, inherited from the tenacious if weakening Christian heritage that has held that every man is a creature created in the image of God and therefore glorious beyond telling, however intelligent he is or isn't. It is a prejudice he will eventually overcome. Him, or his children, or his grandchildren.
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Tracked on Nov 22, 2005 9:46:39 AM
Comments
Great post, David -- actually, two great posts in a row. I note especially the chilling lie that the amniotic test will prevent disease and disability. Prevent it, that is, by killing the person who suffers from it.
Such parents probably consider themselves real heroes merely to have a child at all -- but to have a child that is as afflicted physically as they themselves are morally, well, that's just too much to expect. We know people whose son has severe cerebral palsy -- the child will never walk, has never spoken, and it is doubtful how much he understands of what is going on around him. The family live in a very small, one-level ranch house, where they must perform all those humble duties for someone who cannot sit up or feed himself. They consider themselves blessed by him, as in fact they have been. They are not naturally affectionate people, but in caring for their son they have learned patience, kindness, self-denial, and humility.
Posted by: Tony | Nov 22, 2005 7:34:06 AM
If they were able to provide a test that would reliably predict a defect (and yes, that's the ugly truth of what it is) such as Down's in the 1st trimester, I would find no fault with implementing the test. If (heaven forbid) I was told I was going to have a kid with Down's then I would abort. Call me a sinner, but I know my limits. I could not, and would not choose to deal with such defects in a child. Emotionally and financially, it would be too stressful.
Posted by: angel | Nov 22, 2005 7:38:04 AM
View the film Gattaca if you wish to see a shapshot of the future...
Brave New World.
Posted by: Kevin | Nov 22, 2005 8:22:56 AM
>If (heaven forbid) I was told I was going to have a kid
>with Down's then I would abort.
You do have the option to carry the child to term and relinquish for adoption.
>Call me a sinner, but I know my limits.
We are all sinners, but we are called to hunger and thirst for righteousness. We can be slaves to sin, or set free by Christ.
>I could not, and would not choose to deal with such
>defects in a child. Emotionally and financially, it
>would be too stressful.
Again, you do have the option to carry the child to term and relinquish for adoption. While this is certainly not easy, it is redemptive suffering to save the life of another.
Posted by: holmegm | Nov 22, 2005 9:14:39 AM
Angel,
Having children means that you risk suffering. Indeed, it almost certainly means some suffering--they will disappoint you, they will say hurtful things to you, sometimes perfectly healthy children will become ill, sometimes terminally, they may reject your faith. Not having children also involves suffering--at least at the end of a life when you look back and regret that there is not a loved one there to hold your hand while you die. The issue is not whether you avoid suffering, but whether you love enough to endure it for the sake of the rewards it offers.
As I write this, I am thinking of my one month old daughter. She is a beautiful little girl. Because of our ages when she was conceived, the doctor suggested that we test for Down's and other chromosomal abnormalities. We said no. There was no point. We would have her no matter what the results. At birth, she presented with one of the possible markers for Down's. Indeed, a high percentage of persons with Down's have this marker. It is also a marker for other chromosomal abnormalities. A small percentage of the general population who have no chromosomal abnormalities also have this marker. After a careful examination, the doctor said that she believes our daughter is normal, but we won't know for several more months unless we do chromosomal test. At present, we have elected not to do the test; we may, of course, change our minds if developments warrant.
I pray that she is normal, but if she is not I will love her all the same. I certainly do not want her to be disabled, but primarily for her, not me. I have lived a long enough life and have suffered enough not to be overwhelmed with fear of suffering. He has seen me through other valleys; if it must be, He will see me through this. That confidence is one of sufferings’ rewards.
I too know my limits and I have not doubt that if our daughter is disabled it will be very stressful, emotionally and financially. I have not doubt that it will be more than my wife and I will be able to handle–on our own. But, we will not be on our own.
Angel, if you run from potential suffering every time it appears on the horizon, you will never learn to stop relying on yourself and to place yourself fully in His loving hands.
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 22, 2005 10:25:49 AM
I am a physician who does prenatal care and we are obligated to offer a screening blood test for Down's syndrome to every pregnant woman we see. My patient population is mostly poor (Medicaid) and black. Postive tests are a big problem, because then they have to follow up at the University where they are encouraged to have amniocentesis. Almost none of them choose to actually have amniocentesis, but it then weighs heavy on them through the whole pregnancy.
This has hit me personally with my bonus baby at the age of 40. I was less than happy with this at the time, but God told me clearly this would be a blessing (the only time I really think God actually spoke to me.) I refused the test because I knew I could deal with whatever child God gave me, but did not want to fret before the fact. My sister had a Down's syndrome child at the age of 27, and my neighbor has a 9 year old with Down's. This is by far from the worst fate to happen to child.
But even so, why are we so preoccupied with controlling our lives when it is obvious to me that our lives are in the hands of God. All the best things in retrospect to happen to me in life, were things I never would have chosen. But if you choose to follow God, you end up with bonuses of peace and joy and sometimes a lovely 10 year girl besides.
Posted by: JEAN | Nov 22, 2005 10:34:03 AM
I had my one and only baby at age 42. I was not a Christian then and I had amnio because that's what one did. The test was horrible: my womb shrank so much at the approach of the needle that they had to stab me twice to find it. Afterwards I had a glimmering of conscience, and realized that no matter what the results said I would not abort my baby. Perhaps the experience ended up doing me some good by confronting me with what amnio actually implies.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 22, 2005 10:59:22 AM
Call me a sinner, but I know my limits. I could not, and would not choose to deal with such defects in a child.
which is the whole reason not to choose, Angel. The sin is in thinking, no, acting as though we have actually have a right to choose, viz., the Sin of the Garden.
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 22, 2005 4:14:46 PM
Actually my wife, who is now 38, just yesterday went through the "obligatory refusal" (outlined in David's fine article) that we've grown accustomed to over the years. We've been "diagnosed" (as if we needed medical confirmation) with our sixth child. And I too know my limits and those of my wife, and I too know that a child with a trisomal disoder would likely be a huge burden "emotionally" and "financially". But it is, as Mother Teresa said, a poverty to decide a child must die so that we may live as we want.
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 22, 2005 4:24:12 PM
Angel,
But you do not know your limits. No one does. God knows your limits -- and God knows the vistas of peace and plenty to which He calls you. Steve is exactly right. The problem is "choice" -- a choice that we should do well to nail to the Cross with Christ. The words of one of my favorite old hymns come back to me:
Take my will and make it Thine;
It shall be no longer mine.
Posted by: Tony | Nov 22, 2005 6:10:04 PM
Thank you, David, for your lucid and troubling essay. Nearly thirty years ago, as an assistant professor in a Catholic liberal arts college, I began making my students aware of the way amniocentesis and the pressure for the "perfect child" had begun to transform the conception of a child into the production of a commodity. We are now seeing the consequences. And the presence of these new "choices" have dramatically altered our moral thinking. If the abortion of all three of your children in the womb disturbs you and interferes with your "lifechoices" and "lifestyle", we can offer you the choice of "selective reduction" by taking two away and leaving one. If you are bearing twins, one of whom is "defective", we can removed the "defective" and leave you with the trophy baby.
What a brave new and horrifying world we have created.
One final observation: one day in my Developmental Disabilities class, a guest speaker, the mother of a Down Syndrome child, responded to a student who asked her whether she would have aborted her baby if she had available to her what pregnant women have available to them now: "I don't know - but what my child has taught me is that if I could create a world for myself without pain - one that would be under my complete control - I would never love."
And we have discovered that a world which treats children as commodities, as trophies, as prizes, is indeed a harsh and cruel one - a world which precludes the possibility of love. And every day, papers are filled with its manifestations.
Posted by: Dan Crawford | Nov 23, 2005 5:30:02 AM
My wife and I were advised (mandatory in MD?) of the blood test for Downs Syndrome. My wife was unenthusiastic(!) but in my ignorance I asked the usual questions: How accurate is the test? (Less than two thirds.) What's the follow-up if it's positive? (An invasive procedure in the womb.) What about possible side-effects? (Up to 1 in 200 procedures terminate the pregnancy, depending on the study.)
I recall gripping the arms of the chair and pausing to calm myself before categorically informing our caregiver that we considered this "pregnancy" fully a child; that we would *never* perform a medical procedure on our child that had a 1 in 200 death rate; and that we would appreciate her office’s help in preserving our child's life by informing us up front of such horrific consequences to seemingly small decisions. We had reason to believe afterward that the caregiver was sympathetic but was constrained to present the information to us, as she did, as part of a neutrally-worded questionnaire.
Under the guise of allowing parents to make medically informed decisions, our society threatens the life of every unborn baby with a seemingly innocuous question about a blood test. Welcome, son; you've survived the first attempt on your life.
Posted by: Quena | Nov 23, 2005 9:01:17 AM
My intention in posting my comments was not to iniate debate, I was was merely stating what I would do in such a situation.
Furthermore, I do believe that I have experienced quite enough suffering in my life, thank you (though I am aware that alot of people have unfortunately been through more).
I respectfully decline to go into the details of the above mentioned suffering, as I dislike discussing the personal details of my life with strangers.
To reiterate, I prefer to exercise what tenuous bit of control over events in my life that I can.
Posted by: angel | Nov 24, 2005 1:21:08 PM
>To reiterate, I prefer to exercise what tenuous bit of control over events in my life that I can.
Yes, Angel, even at the cost of another's life, eh?
We're all sinners, Angel; but we don't have to be murderers.
Posted by: Will S. | Nov 24, 2005 8:48:10 PM
Angel: "He who would save his life in this world will lose it." That is not a recommendation for control.
I urge you to remember that there is not one inch of your life which Jesus does not require as His. That includes the last breath in your body. I understand that when people are faced with great temptations they may fall, for "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." But here we are not talking about a sin of weakness, since you have decided from beforehand that you would commit homicide, and are defending the decision. I wonder whether you are fully aware of the seriousness of this position. For you cannot say to yourself now, "I will commit that sin, but God will forgive me," since, far from repenting of the sin, you are justifying it and even insisting upon your right before God and man to commit it. Nor is it possible to will the sin and repent it simultaneously. To believe that you can have God's grace at your beck and call -- that somehow you will arrange it so that you can sin your sin and then repent of it too -- is to commit the sin of presumption, which many commentators identify as one side of the "sin against the Holy Spirit" which Jesus says is unforgivable.
If you really will repent of the homicide, then you really will wish that you had never committed the sin; you will wish that you had your life to live over again, so that you might this time do the right thing. In the case of a homicide, you will wish rather that you had died the day before the sin than that you had lived to commit it.
Forget entirely about control. You are called to obedience, as is every human being. We must either obey the Lord who sets us free, or we end by obeying the enemy below. There is no third option.
Posted by: Tony | Nov 25, 2005 6:47:40 AM
I wonder what the reaction would be if Angel (for example) were to say that she chooses to avoid pregnancy altogether rather than risk being in the position of facing a pregnancy (and a child) that seems more than she can bear. Assume for the point of the argument that abortifacients are not part of the plan. What if a woman chooses either to be completely celibate or to undergo a tubal ligation - iow, to do as much as she can to ensure that she will *not* risk a pregnancy she is not willing to carry to term? More and more, I get the feeling that many prolifers would find such a choice objectionable as well - even when it does not involve the taking of life. There seems to be no middle ground between (a) abortion and (b) marital sex without contraception. While I can understand that as church teaching to the faithful, I cannot imagine how it is to be applied in the civil arena.
What if someone is opposed to abortion and therefore chooses to avoid pregnancy for that reason? Even if in Catholic teaching the fullest good is seen to come from embracing marriage and welcoming children, isn't it better for someone who would be tempted to abort a pregnancy to avoid pregnancy altogether?
Posted by: Juli | Nov 25, 2005 12:36:26 PM
Dear Juli,
This has nothing to do with "prolifers," but with our basic acceptance of the word and the will of God. You don't engage in one evil to avoid another. Another way to put it is that the really obedient follower of Christ wants to be wholly obedient, even if he fails now and then through intemperance and the weakness of the flesh. You just don't get to say, "I will obey in this great matter, but as a recompense, O Jesus, you have to allow me to be disobedient in the smaller matter." Jesus himself disabuses us of this delusion, saying, "He who is unfaithful in the small things will be unfaithful in the great things, and he who is faithful in the small things will be faithful in the great things." Marvelously clear, Jesus is. Our choice is to obey or disobey.
Of course there are ways to avoid pregnancy that don't involve the deliberate willing of an evil. You can decline to marry. You can, within marriage, with the consent of your spouse and after some serious spiritual direction, refrain from marital relations. Or you can use those natural methods that, essentially, allow you to refrain from relations during those times when pregnancy is most likely.
I'd hesitate before I said, to the crucified Jesus, that his conditions were too hard -- especially when we are talking about the performance of one's obvious and natural duty, to bear a child to term; or, in the case of marital relations, to be open to the possibility that those relations will produce what they are designed by God to produce, namely a child. And now, of all times, with modern medicine at hand.
Posted by: Tony | Nov 25, 2005 4:35:28 PM
I think I failed to make my question clear, though I tried. I said
While I can understand that as church teaching to the faithful, I cannot imagine how it is to be applied in the civil arena
Tony replied
This has nothing to do with "prolifers," but with our basic acceptance of the word and the will of God
I mentioned the civil arena for a reason. It is my understanding that Roman Catholics (and Christians generally) find common cause with others in the prolife cause and - in the civil arena, at least - look to advance arguments against abortion that are not framed in religious language. Is there some sense within the (Roman) Catholic prolife movement that (nonabortifacient) contraception (or surgical sterilization) ought to be off limits for everyone - *as a matter or law or public policy*? Or is there recognition - in this area as in so many others - that not all sins (as defined by the Church) are crimes (as defined by the law)? (The list of such sins is long indeed.)
The reason I ask the question wrt contraception is that I've gotten a sense in the last year or two that *some* Roman Catholics are not content with living by the church's teaching on this subject and proclaiming it to the faithful. I have the sense that some want to limit the availability of (nonabortifacient) contraception to adults generally, not just discourage its use by moral suasion. I find this disturbing, but maybe I'm reading the language wrong.
Posted by: Juli | Nov 26, 2005 9:13:07 AM
Or is there recognition - in this area as in so many others - that not all sins (as defined by the Church) are crimes (as defined by the law)? (The list of such sins is long indeed.)
I meant rather "is there recognition ... that not all sins ... *should be* crimes"?
Posted by: Juli | Nov 26, 2005 10:26:48 AM
Just to clarify, I was speaking practically.
I stand by my assertions.
"Call me a sinner" was meant as an expression of speach.
Posted by: angel | Nov 26, 2005 1:09:38 PM
error on previous post, I meant to say statements instead of assertions. Once again, I must state that my original post was a statement of what I would do,* not* what I think others should do.
Posted by: angel | Nov 26, 2005 5:10:01 PM
Angel, you can at least now no longer claim invincible ignorance. Christ have mercy!
Juli, interesting question especially as many quazi-prolife attempts to "reduce the number of" abortions (the hypothetical safe, legal, and rare strategy... err 1 out of 3) is to increase availability, gov't funding, of contraceptives.
Abortion and contraception are different grave sins, with abortion (i.e., murder) being the more grave. But they are so intimately tied together within the Western Neognostic Sanctity of Autonomous Choice that as a practical matter they are part of the same cloth: an irrevocable entitlement to consequence-free sex.
Whether contraceptives should be illegal is a complicated question I think, not least because some do have (in the Church's view) licit uses. Therefore would such a law be enforceable? Ought there exist any human law that is inherently or generally unenforceable? Ought there exist a law a majority of people violate, or would violate without an investment in a gigantic growth of government power? Would such a growth of government power have unintended but immoral consequences? I'm not sure where David or Tony would come down on the issue, but I think at the very limits the answer to question is prudential and not absolute. At any rate, I'm not holding breath for a radical change in contraception laws. With abortion, I think the matter is clear: it is always an objective evil and stopping it by any licit power or means is good and right.
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 26, 2005 8:54:48 PM
People, people!
I was making a statement of what * I * would do in such a hypothetical situation. I was *not* making a statement on the ethics of abortion.
I have to go to Mass now, 1st sunday in advent, you know.
Posted by: angel | Nov 27, 2005 7:49:40 AM
Steve, if the laws could be enforced, would you generally want to see church teaching made into the law of the land - assuming by "church" we are talking about your church, and not someone else's?I'm not talking about contraception anymore, but about church teaching on whatever subject - gossip, for example, or the Sunday obligation.
Posted by: Juli | Nov 27, 2005 9:31:33 AM
Juli, there is only one church, the only question is which one. Yes, if such laws could be enforced, and be enforced without creating or risking greater evils. It would therefore be extremely unlikely that one could prudently enforce the Sunday obligation, which is of course only an obligation to "the faithful" anyway. And there is no way, AFAIK, to licitly enforce faithfulness by state power.
Angel, surely no one is so stupid as to think that the statement of what one would do in a hypothetical situation is somehow not a statement on the ethics of the hypothetical solution. I will therefore give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are simply lying to provoke a response... which this is. That you would consume the flesh of Christ with this sin of presumption on your heart makes it all the more ironic (in the darkest possible sense). But perhaps the irony is intentional, too.
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 28, 2005 10:22:40 AM
Juli, there is only one church, the only question is which one.
Meaning what, exactly, in terms of divisions w/in the church? Is there some mystical unity even in disunity, or do most so-called Christians in the world belong to so-called (false) churches? More to the point, if you would ideally want to see American laws defined by church teaching, who would decide which church?
Yes, if such laws could be enforced, and be enforced without creating or risking greater evils.
Under our system of government, wouldn't it be an abridgment of religious freedom to require all Americans to attend (for example) Baptist or Unitarian services each week, or to tithe, or (your example here)? You don't see problems aside from whether the laws wd be enforceable? The only objections to a Christian form of Sharia (sp?) law are pragmatic ones?
Posted by: Juli | Nov 28, 2005 12:41:11 PM
Juli, I think I see where you are trying to go with the questions, and I don't wish to debate specifics, not least because I haven't given it much thought, and moreover the question strays quite far from the "Useless Knowledge" which spawned the discussion. (Well, on 2nd thot, maybe this is useless knowledge merely of a different kind.)
Prudential (vis-a-vis absolute and authoritative) judgement would dominate almost every action that our hypothetical Uber-Faithful Christian Legistlator (this is who we are talking about) would vote upon. Mandating and enforcing church attendance by state power violates the inherent dignity of man, in addition to almost surely being counterproductive to inculcation of true and willing faith. If the Church has "spiritual" penalties and wishes to enforce them, this is I think a different matter, and ought to be left up to the Church. For all I know, other "Christian Sharia" laws that might be proposed might very well fall under the same condemnation, viz., violating the inherent dignity of man. However there may be yet other "Christian Sharia" laws, whereby objective behaviors are either forbidden or encouraged, for which our hypothetical legislator could legitimately go either way on, depending as I said upon prudential judgement. So, for laws that do not objectively assault human dignity and conscience, yes, the only objections are pragmatic ones, but pragmatic ones in theory, not just in practice! ;-)
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 28, 2005 2:32:12 PM
steve please explain to me just exactly how posting on what I would do in such a situation is telling you or anyone else for that matter what you should do in that same situation? If you or anyone else feels that course of action isn't right for you, then I'm cool with that. That's the beauty of free will and being in a first world free nation.
And man! "consuming the flesh of christ" !! that phrase is just too creepily like canibalism...ughuhh.
Posted by: angel | Nov 28, 2005 6:46:28 PM
Angel,
Show me where in Scripture it says that oneself gets to decide what will be "right for me". Or are you a different species from me, made by a different creator, with a different end?
You need to rethink the virtue of obedience.
Once again: neither you nor I get to decide what homicide is and what it isn't. How you can pretend to follow Christ while yet assuming that good and evil lie in your own determination is beyond me. You are a relativist, pure and simple -- a position that will not bear logical scrutiny. And set aside that silly notion of freedom, which for you seems to mean the license to do as you please. When God asks you, "Why did you disobey me in this regard?", reply to him then, "It was a free country, wasn't it?"
Posted by: Tony | Nov 28, 2005 8:08:44 PM
Minor point, but I was addressing Steve.
So, you label me a relativist. O.k. , that may be true, I'm alright with that.
However, my entire point of originally posting was to say what *I* would do in that imagined senario.
Furthermore, I highly object to the assumption by some that I surely must of wanted to engage in a debate on the ethics of abortion. I don't know, maybe it was because I would follow a different course of action than they . Who knows? It could of been some unwritten thing that's understood by most when posting on blogs.
I look at religion as subjective beliefs, not objective truths, which is precisely why I will politely continue to refuse debate on religion or ethics.
Thank you very much and Have a good day!
Posted by: angel | Nov 29, 2005 7:40:04 AM
For a bit of good news about this subject, see Down syndrome kids sought for adoption.
Posted by: GL | Feb 13, 2006 4:13:33 PM
At lunch today, I visited the local Catholic book store to buy a copy of Thomas Howard's Chance or the Dance?. While there, I noticed on the rack the August/September 2006 issue of The Catholic World Report, which had a cover titled "The 'Humane' Holocaust: As prenatal screening grows, disabled children disappear." As a father of a child who has been diagnosed with brain abnormalities and who, as a result, will likely at best have learning disabilities and at worst suffer some level of mental retardation (it is too early to know), I find this development very disturbing. My daughter is a very beautiful, very loving, very happy, and very engaging child. Even if she were none of those things, of course, it wouldn't matter. We did not have prenatal screening even though my wife was 39 when our daughter was conceived and even though it was recommended because we agreed that it was an unnecessary risk to the child and because we would not murder our own child in any event -- the only recourse available if a problem were detected. As it is, such screening would likely have revealed nothing as the tests which have been performed since her birth have failed to discover a cause for her abnormalities. She doesn't have Down's or any other common chromosomal abnormality.
In the article in The Catholic World Report, the author reports on a mother who refused prenatal testing when she became pregnant with her fifth child at the age of 44. The pediatrician questioned her as to why she had not had testing when, after delivery, she told the parents that their new baby had signs of Down's. She then told them that she was sorry. The mother replied, "My husband and I feel God gives us the children he wants us to have, so don't apologize, we're not sorry!"
Amen.
Posted by: GL | Aug 16, 2006 3:20:39 PM








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