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February 16, 2006
Not Mere Manners
Many years ago while I was visiting an elderly member of my church in a nursing home, a young employee of the establishment marched into his room without knocking, proceeding airily but not unpleasantly to remind him, using his first name, of something she thought he should bear in mind about the afternoon’s activities. The man was a retired college professor in his nineties, physically very frail, but mentally alert, a pleasant and distinguished gentleman for whom I had immense respect. This is the first occasion I remember in which I was struck by the extraordinary rudeness of this twenty-year old’s calling such as he by his first name. Even if she had been a twenty year old queen instead of an orderly it would have been disgusting, for ripe humanity, especially such as Dr. Smith's, carries with it a dignity that even savages know enough to respect. Savages, yes--but the typical modern American, imbued with a complex of notions that overrules all aristocracies, even those of honor, no.
Judith Martin has some good things to say about this practice in Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior (Warner, 1982). The general rule is “Rudeness that is introduced under the name of informality or intimacy is still rudeness” (p. 208). In answer to a twenty-six year old who was bothered by the undue intimacy implied by the ungranted use of her first name by strangers, Martin observes that “such usage is not only undignified, but makes a sham of the ideas of friendship and equality. There is no such thing as instant intimacy” (p. 76). What we have here is in fact an invasion of privacy, an unthinking reduction of the dignity of another human being, and the forcible taking of something that may be given as gift—and which even on occasion should be in humility returned when offered. It harms true and right hierarchies by ignoring them, and harms true and right equalities by presuming upon them.
I think a good many people who still place some value on order and politeness, even though they use first names where they really shouldn’t, wouldn’t mind returning to an etiquette they have been forced by common barbarism to regard as antique or bourgeois. Several months ago I was seated at a dinner attended by the families of an organization to which I belong. One of the children, a loud and stupid boy of ten or twelve, kept addressing a past director, a man of more than seventy, by his first name. Clearly the table was disturbed by this. The gentleman bore up under it and made no protest to the boy or his imbecile parents, but the company’s discomfort with this behavior was clear.
As a midwestern American, I accept as a matter of course fairly informal manners of address. I am comfortable when adults with whom I am on friendly terms call me by my first name. But it does not seem to me that people who are much younger than I should do this, or that I should address those significantly older than I am in this way. Those whose offices are or should be considered distinguished by society at large should be addressed by default by their titles, especially when they are appearing in those titles’ capacity. When chatting with him at table I call Dr. Hitchcock “Jim,” but if I am introducing him to other people, he is identified by one of his titles. Father Reardon, a reverend and elder priest, gets even higher consideration. Even in intimate company it seems right for me to address him as “Father” more times than I call him “Pat,” for although he is my friend (and whatever the quality of his jokes) he is also objectively a father in God—one of the highest ranks a man can have.
It is frustrating to have to avoid rudeness oneself by forbearing to correct rude people, but as undemocratic as they may think it, when I hear them call others what they will I judge their upbringing, and so inevitably to some degree their worth, by their manner of address. A polite man is not necessarily a good man, but a rude one, even if no offense is intended by undue familiarity, is a lower creature than he ought to be.
Posted by S. M. Hutchens at 09:26 PM | Permalink
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Thank you for this. As I was reading I heard your omments as a metaphor for a national decay as well. Our collective good manners as a country are as much in danger of corruption as civil discourse at the social level. I blogged about it but I am not expecting the right people to notice.
Posted by: Hootsbuddy | Feb 17, 2006 3:49:18 AM
Some years ago I officed w/ a young woman who was 'cutting edge' in her child raising (as well as sexuality, etc). She proudly told me that she wasn't going to teach her children to follow those old, outdated formalities (like 'Yes Sir', or 'Yes Ma'am', etc). When I asked her why, she replied something like, 'They're unnecessary, and not worth anything.' I then talked with her about the decline of manners & courtesies means there's an increase of it's opposite: barbarism. She never brought the subject up again.
Posted by: Rev. Michael Philliber | Feb 17, 2006 6:45:49 AM
The foundation for courtesy begins with our own home lives and childhoods. Raising a child "diligently" requires an innate intelligence and sensitivity to the child and others that supercedes intellectualism. My mom, an 8th grade graduate only, raised all of us to speak to our elders politely, to tip our caps (yes, we wore caps) to women, and to call them, "Miss" or "Mrs.", and men, "Sir." If an adult had a title, e.g., Dr., Judge, Officer, we were to use that.
Children don't learn obnoxious informality and rudeness unless instructed by their parents (or now often other adults in child care). My daughter's pre-school teachers insisted upon being called "Mrs."
There is nothing as loathsome as another adult telling a small child to address them by first name. The child, in turn, takes it for granted that all adults want to be so addressed and appears rude and presumptious. What begins with this simple rudeness then snowballs later into all sorts of selfish behavior.
Posted by: John Hetman | Feb 17, 2006 7:10:40 AM
I'd have to disagree - the use of the degraded title of 'Master' (mister) is very much an East coast cultural remnant of some of the most oppressive periods of European history - best to use it only for clergy. In the Western USA, the use of first names has nothing to do with 'informality' or familiarity but rather with egalitarian views that judges a person not on their birth, wealth, or pretense but merely upon the merits of their deeds. Its roots go back to the American Backcountry for sure. In Western eyes, there really is something quite rude about someone demanding respect that they haven't earned (and use of 'Mr.' or the surname is enough to give offense - usually only used for reproof. Using our personal name is the sign of respect.) And, even having moved back East - I find the use of 'Mister' is primarily a term of dismissal or belittlement rather than good manners. However - I do expect the new emphasis on 'titles' of the aged to grow as the Me Generation enters retirement age: self absorbedly demanding what they denied to their parents and grandparents - titles of respect (and the respect to go with it.) (And, I pity the man whose name is of such ill repute that he considers its use an insult!)
Posted by: aristibule | Feb 17, 2006 7:22:05 AM
I'll always remember a certain gunny sergeant addressing young midshipmen at Annapolis: "Keep in step, SIR, or I'll break your leg!" Certainly "Mister" in the case of midshipmen has often been a title of reproof...but only because its very usage is a reminder of an official status one is expected to live up to.
Social equality is one thing, familiarity another - and from children, I desire neither.
We Southerners have a sort of compromise, a level of comfort where a child addresses an adult with his first name AND title..."Mister Joe" or "Miz Judy". ("Miz" is also a very practical title, 'til you write it down and look silly; you sort of schlosh the word around your mouth so it isn't clearly "Miss" or "Mrs.", in case you don't know which is appropriate. It is a homonymn of "Ms.", as well.) Anyway...usages change, certainly - it may matter less, just what the best manners are - than that there be an effort to hold to SOME coherent set, and that that set be formulated on showing respect. The typical little hellion first-naming me isn't showing any other evidence of respect, either.
Posted by: Joe Long | Feb 17, 2006 8:28:20 AM
As usual, I'm with Joe on this. When I was growing up in the Midwest, I was taught to call my parents' friend Uncle or Aunt followed by their first name. My wife and I have taught our children to call our friends Mr. or Mrs. or Miss followed by their first name (as Joe says, this is the Southern convention). Just as I was taught, I teach my children to say "Yes, sir" and "No, ma'am," "may I please" and "thank you." I still do the same. And courtesy matters. When I am in a check out line and say to a young clerk, "Thank you, ma'am," it brings a smile to her face and you can tell she feels respected.
In my class, I call my students Mr. or Miss or Mrs. as is applicable followed by their last name and expect them to call me Professor or Dean. When they graduate, however, I instruct them to call me by my first name and I do the same with them. It is a signal that they have now joined the profession and that we are now equals in that sense.
Posted by: GL | Feb 17, 2006 8:46:56 AM
We also teach our kids to address most adults by "Miss/Mr. Firstname." This is a challenge when many of their friends address their own parents, and us, by first names, but we won't budge.
We never use Mrs. or Lastname because it is too hard to keep track of who does or doesn't like Mrs. and which pairs of parents have the same last names. In fact I quite often am not sure I know the last names of a great many of our neighbors. (That's Sarah Jones. No wait, her husband is Jones, I think she's Smith. Or is it Smith-Jones? ...)
Posted by: Matthias | Feb 17, 2006 9:00:43 AM
My first teaching assignments were in the Carolinas, and as a northeasterner grown used to rudeness I was at first taken aback when students would insert a "sir" into their replies to me, as a matter of course. I immediately thought better of them, and, strange to say, thought differently of myself. If they were going to call me "sir," then I had better live up to that respect. The degradation works both ways.
Also the distance implied by withholding the free use of your first name suggests that people are not to be taken for granted; just as you would not sashay up to a king or tell loud idiot jokes in the presence of a queen. And there ought to be some trace, in our encounter with every new person, of the awful mystery of his or her having been created in the image of God.
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Feb 17, 2006 10:12:50 AM
There is nothing as loathsome as another adult telling a small child to address them by first name.
It is fine to teach your children to address people respectfully, but part of respect is honoring the expressed wishes of the person being addressed. If someone expressly invites you to drop the honorific, it's courteous to pay attention. Of course, adults who get irked by children who forget and call them Mr A or Ms B are also being silly -- they should appreciate the spirit behind the courteous address.
Posted by: Juli | Feb 17, 2006 10:43:31 AM
When I taught (college) I called my students "Mr." or "Ms." followed by their last name. If I developed a rapport with them later in the semester, I'd call them by their first name in private. As a freshman at the University of SC, I took a general introduction to Western history from a lovely Roman Catholic gentleman who studied medieval English towns. He called his students "Mr." and "Ms." and it was an ennobling title from him. I was a procrastinator and proved incapable of producing papers on time for him. As he handed one of them back, a red "C" emblazoned upon it, he smiled ruefully, shook his head and said, "Mr. Godbold, if you had *only* been two days earlier you would have received an A." Somehow, the use of "Mr." made it a comment between equals instead of a rebuke to a callow student (which I was). In any case, it *properly* shamed me and I don't think I was late with an assignment after that. I wanted to be what he was pretending I was.
I think that Aristibule is a bit off on this point. No one that I have ever known objected being called "Mr." on account of it being derived from "master". I certainly don't think of that term--it's merely a sign of respect. I address men of any age as "Mr." if I don't know them well.
The assumption of intimacy by telemarketers and salespeople when they use my first name can really put my back up, (especially if they're appreciably younger). I don't rebuke them (that would be rude), but I'm automatically less likely to buy whatever they're selling.
Posted by: Gene Godbold | Feb 17, 2006 10:58:44 AM
One more story illustrative of...something, on the subject:
I had an English class taught by an active Army Colonel. He informed us on the first day that we could leave formality outside, that our class was to be a free discussion of ideas and so forth, and that to promote a proper atmosphere, we would be on a first-name basis.
"By that I mean," he said, "that I will call you Bill, or Joe, or Fred. And you will call me 'Colonel.' "
Posted by: Joe Long | Feb 17, 2006 11:44:51 AM
Aristibule's comment on the way of doing things in the West--that using the first name carries with it the "honor due"--appears to be the same as what I identify as the "Christian possibility" among Quakers in the next blog up.
However much "mister" might be disliked among Westerners, my own experience in the West indicate that there are other titles of honor that are freely given as tokens of respect, and are signs of the social and cultural hierarchy. These include "judge," "sheriff," "officer," and titles of governmental or military rank. Physicians and dentists may be called "Doc," but still . . . .
Adult women are generally addressed by polite westerners, and often with some flourish, as "Ma'am," in a way (especially by men) that indicates more respect for their womanhood as such than it does where I live. A Westerner may have an aversion to "mister," but he can be very polite and respectful in his own way.
When he comes East, though, he might be advised to consider the possible consequences of doing things as he is used to doing them at home. He might consider the common European graphic depicting the obnoxious American tourist as wearing cowboy boots and a Stetson hat.
Posted by: smh | Feb 17, 2006 12:17:02 PM
"Of courtesy it is much less than courage of God or holiness, but in my walks it seems to me that the grace of God is in courtesy." This Hilaire Belloc poem -see Cowpi journal archives on the web-was the frontispiece in a little book going back almost sixty years, when I was in grade school, on the subject of courtesy. We were little beasts who would pay scant attention to anything a grownup said unless there was at least an implied threat of sanctions, and I think the good nuns taught us out of this book for a couple of years, things like what title to use for people of various station, and how to behave to look like we had been "brought up, not dragged up", as the saying went. Where sanctions were required, they were applied. Courtesy is not a natural quality of sinners, including children, and it is good to have been taught the rudiments. I am sure the schools got rid of this in order to teach sex education or drivers education, or some other important thing.
Posted by: JackONeill | Feb 17, 2006 12:34:41 PM
Dear Mr. O'Neill,
Education in manners was excluded to teach *boating safety*. What use is having well-mannered children, if they just grow up to die in boating accidents?
Posted by: Gene Godbold | Feb 17, 2006 1:22:27 PM
Generally, children around here refer to adults as Mr./Mrs. and use their Christian name. It's a rather modern thing to address a priest as "Fr. Smith" rather than "Fr. John," for example.
Posted by: Matthew | Feb 17, 2006 8:27:27 PM
Here in central Texas, "sir" and "ma'am" from children has almost disappeared in the cities, though it still persists in small towns and rural areas. I recall many of my friends being required to sir and ma'am their own parents, but that seems to have vanished altogether. "Mr. Robert" or "Miss Julie" ("miss" is southwestern for the southern "miz," and is used for all women) does, as above noted, prevail; only until around the age of 9 or 10, at which point the Kindergarten usage is generally dropped for "Mr. Smith" or "Mrs. Jones."
During my five-year sojourn in northern California, I was required to call many people by their first names, to my great discomfort. The worst was an elderly, dignified professor, who wouldn't brook being called by anything other than "Barbara," which I was constitutionally unable to say. To talk to her, I had to sort of throw myself in her path and begin speaking, since I couldn't get her attention by saying her name.
Many Californians spoke of this as the sort of egalitarian paradise another poster suggests. Many more objected to terms that made them "feel old." But only among the Anglo population of California did I find people who believed "mister" or "missus" to be "primarily a term of dismissal or belittlement rather than good manners"; I never met a black American, in California or Texas, who was under that foolish impression, or affected offense at being addressed with respect. Maybe having had to fight for the dignity of being called "mister" instead of your bare first name (or worse) innoculates you somewhat from such notions.
Posted by: sharon d. | Feb 17, 2006 9:39:28 PM
First, I don't know from where Matthew makes his claim that "It's a rather modern thing to address a priest as 'Fr. Smith' rather than 'Fr. John'." He adduces no evidence for this, and (being of a reasonably advanced age) I can never remember ever addressing any clergy by other than title and last name. (It strikes me that calling an RC priest by his first name, and the diminutive at that -- "Fr. Bill" and not "Fr. William," let alone "Fr. Reilly" or simply "Fr." -- is a post-Vatican II innovation. On the other hand, the Eastern Orthodox I know have always addressed their clergy by title and chrismational first name, e.g., "Fr. Dmitri" -- so there may be a difference in ecclesial culture here.) For my part, I value addressing clergy by title and last name (even those who are close personal friends), as that keeps before me their status as set apart by God by the grace of ordination.
Second, some ten years ago when my best friend's children first became old enough to speak, he taught them to address me as "Mr. Jim." I felt a bit hurt at the seeming distance this implied, and asked why instead I wasn't "Uncle Jim" (as his wife urged). The expected explanation of teaching children to respect adults did not assuage this. A few weeks later, on my next visit, I was suddenly "Uncle Jim." Delighted, I asked why the change had occurred. A bit sheepishly, Bob admitted that he since had been to the house of his close friend Steve, and had felt exactly what I did when Steve's children duly addressed him as "Mr. Bob" rather than "Uncle Bob." In short, children should be taught to address elders with respect by proper titles, but the choice of title (e.g., Mr. & Mrs. vs. Uncle & Aunt) depends on the degree of intimacy of the relation involved.
Third, and at much greater length, what no one has noted in Aristibule's disturbing post is its blatant appeal to human pride. First, "mister" is tendentiously mischaracterized as a "degraded" title. (Since when is derivation necessarily a degradation?) Next comes the snobbish stereotype of the "East Coast" and politically correct invocation of the "oppressive periods of European history." (If "Mister" is indeed a "cultural remnant" of such, then why "best to use it only for clergy"? That would be a positively insulting association.) Later, there is the fatuous assertion that on the East Coast, "the use of 'Mister' is primarily a term of dismissal or belittlement rather than good manners." (This Midwesterner by birth and upbringing has now lived on the East Coast for 13 years, and this statement is utter rubbish.)
But the real giveaway is the appeal to "egalitarian views that judges a person not on their [sic] birth, wealth, or pretense but merely upon the merits of their [sic] deeds." [Doesn't Aristibule know that a singular subject takes a singular and not a plural pronoun as its referent?] Oh, how we Americans love our egalitarianism, flattering ourselves that we are just as good as everyone else! Aristibule here implicitly makes the common conflation of political equality and rights under law with moral worth and social standing.
But both the doctrine of the Trinity and the teaching of Our Lord teach us as a cardinal principle of the faith that hierarchy and equality are not contradictory and mutually exclusive, but ultimately compatible. The equality of persons in the Godhead coexists with an order of precedence in authority from the Father to the Son to the Holy Ghost. All labourers receive the same reward, and yet also the last shall be first and the first last, and those who sit at the lowest table are raised up higher while those who take the foremost seats are humbled to a lower place.
It is one thing to stand for the intrinsic, ontological equal worth of all souls in the eyes of God, when one is defending others (e.g. the humanity of the preborn, the profoundly retarded, the comatose, the senile). It is quite another thing to do as Aristibule implicitly does and demand recognititon of one's self as equal to everyone else. That is a sin of pride. I am not the equal of my parish priest, or the president of the United States, or even of the parishioner in the next pew who is a far more prayerful and holy and God-trusting soul than I am.
Ironically, Aristibule fails to recongize the inherent contradictions in his own argument when he next asserts that (supposedly "in Western eyes" -- in which I put as much confidence as in his statements about the East Coast) "there really is something quite rude about someone demanding respect that they [sic] haven't earned."
First, this is exactly what any appeal to egalitarianism does. Second, to judge persons "on the merits of their deeds" is not egalitarianism, but meritocracy. Third, while it is right to give honor or recognition on the basis of deeds, it is wrong to withhold these when they are due to the office a person holds apart from any deeds (the military "salute the uniform and not the wearer" principle). Even St. Paul retracts his jibe against the Pharisee who smites him upon learning that his assailant is a "ruler of [God's chosen] people." Fourth, to judge honor due by the (apparent) magnitude of deeds can be a grievous error -- cf. the widow's mite vs. the Pharisee's ample largesse. God looks on the inner and not the outer man. Fifith, it implicitly contravenes Our Lord's teaching that, regardless of the magnitude of our deeds, we are all unprofitable servants, and can not merit salvation by works.
Finally, a powerful negative lesson I learned from my father (a bitter man who hated God, alas). Much like Aristibule, he was fond of saying, "You don't GIVE respect -- people have to EARN it." What I soon recognized, even as a child, was that this was a self-serving rationale for my father to demand respect for himself, but never to show it to anyone else, because no-one could ever do well enough to earn his respect.
What my father and Aristibule both wish to do is exercise that sin of pride termed "judgmentalism." Unwittingly, the gospel lessons that my unChristian father taught me was that: 1) one indeed does GIVE respect to others, as being of intrinsic worth (being made in the image of God), which is then theirs to enhance or diminish by their character and conduct; and 2) one does not demand respect from others, but instead receives it humbly as an undeserved gift from a loving God. The free giving of respect to others, and the humble receiving of it when given as undeserved, are precisely the inverses of Aristibule's assertion of egalitarianism on the one hand and demand for recognition of deeds and merits on the other.
Posted by: James Altena | Feb 18, 2006 5:51:24 AM
The comments that were made should be taken in the light they were written in, rather than deconstructing them or reading something into them that isn't there. The context could be pretty well established by reading the latest blog at Orthodox Okie. I am a little embarrassed that my comments would give place to anyone publicly speaking ill of their father. I will say I find it difficult to respond in full to the last post - as it is quite an inversion of what I actually said (and an awful lot of ad hominem.) What is appropriate? Calling people by the names or titles they wish to be called.
I will point out this little bit: " It is quite another thing to ... demand recognititon of one's self as equal to everyone else. That is a sin of pride. I am not the equal of my parish priest, or the president of the United States, or even of the parishioner in the next pew who is a far more prayerful and holy and God-trusting soul than I am."
However, I never did take the position argued against (it is neither implicit nor explicit in my posting) - judge me for what I am implying: that demanding titles of superiority (Mister and Sir) simply because of age, race, or even from one's elders and their children is not a 'giving' but rather an expectation of entitlement. None of us are inherently entitled to anything. There is also the illogical separation of 'office' and deeds - which is covered at the post on Orthodox Okie. The office is the deeds: a priest does the deeds of the priest, the judge does the deeds of the judge, etc. 'Mister' and 'Sir' are not offices (though the terms they are derived from may once have been) - they are titles of superiority, and as used in some quarters particularly of even racial superiority.
Lastly: " The free giving of respect to others, and the humble receiving of it when given as undeserved," are precisely what I was calling for, not their inverses.
Posted by: aristibule | Feb 18, 2006 7:16:46 AM
I teach in a 3rd grade bilingual classroom, and in Spanish the parents and children will call me "Maestra", literally "teacher". In English there does not seem to be a similar title until you get to the university level, when you can address someone as "Professor". Parents do not use "teacher" as a respectful title. But whenever they call me "maestra", I feel like a representative of a respected profession. I think that I act more like one, too. I want to be worthy of the respect they have given me.
Posted by: K. Fanning | Feb 18, 2006 10:36:43 AM
I'm sorry you take offense, Aristibule, but there is nothing ad hominem about my comments on your post, only analysis (not "deconstruction") of your comments and their implications. (If your comments do not involve a sin of pride, then demosntrate how, instead of responding with wounded indignation.) Neither Dr. Hutchens nor any of the other contributors to this discussion is "demanding" any use of titles for being addresed themselves. Rather, they properly defend the use of such titles, and need for them, as Christian values necessary to the cultivation of humility and preservation of a civilized society. The Scriptures mandate in several places that respect is to be given to the aged and to the holders of certain offices -- with no qualifications made as to the merits of the individuals involved. The distinction (not separation) of office and deeds is thus Scriptural (cf. my citation of St. Paul) and does not make respect for the first contingent upon the second. By contrast, you in effect re-assert once again that your respect for the aged and the bearers of authority will be conditional upon your judgment of their merits. I am glad to see that you agree with my closing sentence -- but that is not to where the import of your comments lead, in making the giving of respect conditional upon your judgments of others.
As for my father, I spoke the truth, not "ill," of him -- he was sadly a man who openly railed against God and blamed Him for the disappointments in his life. (The Scriptures frankly cite Hebrews who who say without blame that their fathers "died in their own sins," and we know how terrible those sins were.) Nonetheless, I paid him due respect to the day of his death. I never once rebuked him, but rather prayed quietly for his conversion, and continue to pray for his soul afer death. I cited what he said and did because it pointedly illustrated the issue at hand.
Posted by: James Altena | Feb 19, 2006 7:00:16 AM
Respectfully, Mr. James Altena (is it Doctor now?), the false charge is "...in making the giving of respect conditional upon your judgments of others."
I in no sense claimed the honorifics were given or withheld as a personal judgment of others. Titles, again, are something that are given by assent and consensus - and yes, by what one does. A priest is a priest not by virtue of the title, but by priestly acts (ordination, making the sacrifice and the prayers at the altar), the judge by virtue of his deeds (he wears the judicial robes, bangs the gavel, questions and makes judgment.) So, the offense is yours, in claiming I promoted withholding of honor based upon judgmentalism.
However, the argument was not merely, as you claim: "The Scriptures mandate in several places that respect is to be given to the aged and to the holders of certain offices -- with no qualifications made as to the merits of the individuals involved. The distinction (not separation) of office and deeds is thus Scriptural (cf. my citation of St. Paul) and does not make respect for the first contingent upon the second." Proof texting, in any case, we have plenty of Scripture telling us not to desire power over the over, or holding ourselves in higher esteem (which demanding 'Sir' and 'Mister' for ourselves is.) The demand for these terms as "Christian values necessary..." goes beyond what the Church has actually considered necessary for being a Christian and even salvation.
My comments were clearly directed at the words of Mr. John Hetman: "There is nothing as loathsome as another adult telling a small child to address them by first name."
"If your comments do not involve a sin of pride, then demosntrate how, instead of responding with wounded indignation." I would 'demosntrate' how, but your first reply was rather wordy 10 paragraph essay (with 8 paragraphs to my 1) which was, indeed, primarily occupied with ad hominem and eisegetics rather than inquiry. A little research would have uncovered what the foundation of my argument was (see the blog linked through my signature) which has everything to do with Dr. Hutchens 'Christian thought'. An example would be "... flattering ourselves that we are just as good as everyone else!" Rather, refusing the unnecessary titles of 'Mister' and 'Sir' from juniors, 'lesser races', or the poor is not 'flattering ourselves' but the "Christian thought" as contained in the Kathisma of the Byzantine funeral rite: "Truly all things are vanity .... When we have acquired the world, then do we take up our dwelling in the grave, where kings and beggars are the same." The pride, then, is not in the refusing of honorifics, but in demanding them of others. This is no contradiction of "hierarchy and equality are not contradictory and mutually exclusive, but ultimately compatible." Your approach, however, was in the spirit of our present atmosphere of toxic political rhetoric, and the attribution of motives that simply are not there.
Drake Aristibule Adams, sinner
Posted by: aristibule | Feb 20, 2006 7:55:06 AM
Hey James,
Yes, I'm Eastern Orthodox, hence my comments about addressing priests as Fr. John, not Fr. Smith.
Posted by: Matthew | Feb 20, 2006 8:05:40 AM
I agree in principle but application of course varies by place. My general rule locally is if somebody is of my parents' generation or older I assume a surname basis unless told otherwise; 'sir' or 'madam' (or 'ma'am', like one calls royalty) doesn't make sense in my context (unless one is working in a shop) and would be taken as mocking.
I've always called the former owner of my newspaper Mr Surname - he's local and I see him about now and then - out of genuine respect (a kind of affection).
Spanish and Italian have an equivalent to the Southern (I've only heard blacks use it) title and first name: don (donna, doña) first name, used to honour older people of all social classes. For example the janitor your father's age would be don Antonio. Primary-school teachers are called this as well... as are diocesan priests. (Padre is for monks, friars and religious-order priests.)
In England it's a bit different. Historically Mr in writing was for lower-class men in the trades; a university man, a gentleman, in writing, was/is First name Surname, Esq. (Which is why it still makes me laugh to see American women lawyers use it!)
Russia and the Ukraine have the nearly unique use of the patronymic (father's first name): the equivalent across the board there of Mr Surname isn't Gospodin Gorbachev but Mikhail Sergeyevich, which sounds frightfully familiar to us. (Gospodin Surname is for foreigners and would sound weird for a Russian.)
Iceland has few actual surnames, retaining the use of patronymics from Viking custom. Unlike Russia, nearly everybody is on a first-name basis. (Source: co-worker who loves Iceland and has been seven times.)
Though it's not a particularly friendly country, in liberal Sweden nearly everybody is on a first-name basis as well, which partly proves your point and I think is more to do with simplifying the language (the formal you - Ni - and third-person singular of verbs drop out in practice; unlike Germany most people are du). (Source: friend who studied Swedish.)
I've no culture-wars issue with Ms - the Southern Miz is the same, it's actually old (the 1700s?) and as my title, Mr, keeps my privacy about my marital status, why shouldn't women have the same? It's like a neutral Mrs; German simply uses the old form for Mrs, Frau, for all women above a certain age.
I'm glad one usage is going away: Mrs Husband's First Name Surname for married women. (It probably was innocuous originally, short for 'the mistress of John Smith' when mistress meant something different.) It's strange. Better Mary Smith (the two shall become one flesh, love and all that) than Mrs John Smith, which makes Mary sound like chattel or a kind of transsexual.
Posted by: The young fogey | Feb 20, 2006 9:24:14 AM
Young Fogey,
I believe one reason "Mrs. John Smith" held on as long as it did was that "Mrs. Mary Smith" was the designation for a divorced woman. A divorcee also kept her ex-husband's last name, even if she remarried, and just added on the new last name. My dear departed grandmother, who abhorred incorrect usage, went to her grave as "Mrs. Mary Smith White Jones," having married and divorced three times.
Posted by: sharon d. | Feb 20, 2006 5:26:05 PM
"Mrs. Mary Smith" was the designation for a divorced woman.
I knew that, thanks. That's why I gave simply Mary Smith as the good modern way.
Posted by: The young fogey | Feb 21, 2006 8:35:10 AM
Dear Aristibule,
After considerable reflection, I have decided that it would be unseemly to continue in this venue what threatens to degenerate into an argument rather than a debate. Suffice it to say that I stand by what I have written and reject your charges against me, and leave you post the final word should you wish.
Posted by: James Altena | Feb 22, 2006 5:21:09 PM
Yesterday's New York Times had an interesting piece that relates to this thread: To: Professor@University.edu Subject: Why It's All About Me.
The question I have is what I should make of this. It certainly demonstrates an undue familiarity which we have been discussing. On the other hand, academia has spent the past 40 years trashing authority. Perhaps this is our just reward.
I found this quote particularly telling:
"The deference was probably driven more by the notion that professors were infallible sources of deep knowledge," Professor Dede said, and that notion has weakened.
Who's fault is that? When faculty tell students that their is no absolute truth, how could they be expected to believe we possess it.
Posted by: GL | Feb 22, 2006 5:57:47 PM








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