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February 28, 2006
A Priest of Outstanding Character
The French-language press, in reporting on the Quebecois priests who are dissenting from Catholic teaching on homosexuality, have omitted an important detail about the career of Father Raymond Gravel, a leader of the dissent.
The Globe and Mail, however, has discovered Gravel's interesting background:
The signatories include the maverick, outspoken Father Raymond Gravel. Father Gravel -- who had a rough-and-tumble youth as a prostitute and barman in a leather bar before he entered the priesthood -- has often criticized the church's views on gays in the past.
Obviously the bishop who ordained Gravel thought his sterling character made him fit for the priesthood.
I also wonder how many bishops knew him professionally in his former career. I say this because in researching my book on sexual abuse, I realized that several bishops were themselves compromised, and that is why they did not act against abusive priests. An air of blackmail permeates the whole situation, and I wonder if Gravel knows something about the bishops (or their friends) that they would prefer to keep quiet.
Posted by Lee Podles at 05:04 PM | Permalink
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What if he's repented? Are the repentant not allowed into the priesthood?
It's conceivable that he would have repented of prostitution and other elements of his past without necessarily giving up his views on monogamous homosexuality. For all we know, this is precisely what happened. Because of his outspoken views of homosexuality, I think that we can safely call Fr. Gravel heterodox and thus theologically unfit for the priesthood, but unless you are his bishop and confessor, I don't think we have any grounds to declare him morally unfit.
Posted by: JS Bangs | Feb 28, 2006 6:11:04 PM
Ouch!
As to the above comment, we may not, and should not judge the man, and the state of his soul, but there is enough in his background to question his fitness for the priesthood. The priesthood is, after all, a vocation, not a career path.
Posted by: Ron Moffat | Feb 28, 2006 6:34:16 PM
I have no problem bringing out facts, and I'm willing to grant Gravel may be unfit for the priesthood (based simply on his apparent heterodoxy).
Still... ouch. I'm not quite happy about bringing accusations of engaging in sexual acts with male prostitutes against high authorities of the church, especially without evidence (there may be evidence, but none is given).
Our Lord was not slow to make harsh comments, when necessary, and especially toward hypocritical religious leaders. But -- with all respect and humility -- does that last comment really demonstrate Christ-like charity?
Posted by: firinnteine | Feb 28, 2006 8:40:17 PM
In Ireland, under English rule, there was no doubt the Church was on the side of the Faith. Consequently, as the Church came out from under British rule, for decades there was no more loyally Catholic place on earth than Ireland. The same was --and is true in Poland.
But democracies seduce Church leadership. Instead of believing the best policy for Church leadership is to have a strong backbone--to be firm- especially with priests (and deacons), they cower, quibble, and sometimes outright grovel in the face of what the Church, Tradition, and the Bible makes clear is evil.
However, who, as the Bible asks, will march into battle behind an uncertain trumpet?
Some bishops seem to specialize in in being waffles. Such are being devoured by the world and many of the souls in their care are also being devoured--because of them.
No wonder Dante put so many weak hierarchs in some of the hottest places in Hell.
Posted by: Deacon John M. Bresnahan | Feb 28, 2006 8:44:30 PM
Dr. Podles’ last sentence was over the top, reminiscent of the Orthodoxy-is-manlier, chip-on-the-shoulder rhetoric in his book.
That said, I can’t fault his assessment of Fr. Gravel’s (lack of) character. The issue is not prostitution, an immoral lifestyle regardless of whether one’s clients are of the same or opposite sex. It is also not about celibacy or monogamy. The fact that he blatantly flouts Church teaching, which doctrine he has vowed to defend, is proof that he is not repentant. In this regard, one can see the wisdom in the Vatican’s recent Instruction on same-sex-attracted seminarians. It is not enough to be celibate, or not to be consumed by sexual desires; men with SSA who are discerning a vocation to the priesthood must also refuse to adopt or support the gay “culture” which is flourishing in the West.
I know several clergy who formerly engaged in homosexual behavior, but have repented of that (myself included); I even know one priest who formerly engaged in prostitution (no, not me). But to the extent that their (our) behavior was notoriously public, their (our) repentance must be equally public. It is not repentance to promote acceptance of homosexual behavior as Fr. Gravel is doing; to lead people toward sin rather than away from it is not in keeping with the character of a priest of God.
Posted by: (Deacon) Mephibosheth | Feb 28, 2006 9:41:38 PM
I don't know anything about this priest, this controversy, or really even about Quebec now that I think of it. The situation seems troublesome, to say the least.
But due respect to Mr. Podles, that last line is a cheap shot, as amatuerish as it is uncharitable, and beneath the thoughtfulness that usually characterizes this site.
Posted by: Mike C. | Feb 28, 2006 10:54:15 PM
I see Mr. Podles has expanded on his "cheap shot." Given the history of the problem within the Catholic episcopacy in North America, I don't see how it can be "cheap."
When one sees leadership not leading, the question "why" arises irresistably. Think, for example, King David's failure to "manage" the sexually irregular antics within his own household. We know, of course, exactly why he is compromised, why he displays an obvious absence of nerve when confronted with this problem. Pots will do almost anything to avoid being called black by the kettles.
So, here are bishops who behold their underlings, those over whom they exericise pastoral and doctrinal authority, failing to exercise either. "Why?" pops up immediately. And the reasonable answers to that question have a fairly limited range.
Posted by: Fr. Bill | Mar 1, 2006 6:51:45 AM
The range of reasons "why" people sin is only as limited as the devil's imagination.
My criticism of Mr. Podles post was not that his insinuation was false -- for all I know, Canadian bishops could be running bath houses out of their chanceries.
But the fact is that the evidence in Mr. Podles' post does not support the assertion that Canadian bishops routinely engage the services of male prostitutes. Mr. Podles, knowing this, chose to insinuate the charge rather than assert it, a foul against the rules of honest discourse, and regrettably did so in the style of a frat house wag.
His extension at the end of his post, while informative, doesn't mitigate the offending crack, which still undermines and stands out from the rest of Mere Comments like, say, a prostitute in a rectory.
Posted by: Mike C. | Mar 1, 2006 9:30:20 AM
Well put. Are we discussing the dissenting Canadian priests, particularly Fr. Gravel, or are we discussing the North American episcopate, or something else entirely? It's difficult not to infer an axe to grind given the rather abrupt shift.
Posted by: (Deacon) Mephibosheth | Mar 1, 2006 9:41:00 AM
If he is still opposing church teaching on homosexuality, chances are that he isn't repentant. Plus, forgiveness does not mean "right to be ordained." If I were a bishop, perhaps in very rare circumstances I might be willing to ordain an ex-homosexual, but an ex-homosexual PROSTITUTE? Good grief! If repetance means a right to be ordained, should we ordain repentant murderers and rapists?
By the way, I have an interesting update on the hymn "Lord, You Have Come." The other day I happened to be in a church that had a brand-new, copyright 2006 hymnal, and as I was flippng through it, I noticed that they still had "Lord, You Have Come" in the Trupia translation, but the translation was now attributed not to Trupia or any other individual but to "Oregon Catholic Press." Better to have junked the translation entirely, bit at least he probably won't be getting royalties anymore (unless he and OCP have some sort of secret deal worked out, which, since nothing would shock me anymore, might well be the case.)
Posted by: James Kabala | Mar 1, 2006 10:06:41 AM
Personne ne va me comprendre parmi tous ces anglophones (et ne peut me traduire en ligne a cause des manques d'accents), mais je voudrais bien vous dire que les questions que vous posez a la fin de votre article sur la situation catholique quebecoise, a mon avis, sont tout-a-fait raisonables. Pas tellement gentilles, c'est vrais, mais raisonables. Dans de telles situations, il faut qu'il y ait quelqu'un qui ose poser ce qui vient en esprit a tout le monde. Et c'est ca que vous avez fait.
Posted by: jean-baptiste | Mar 1, 2006 12:35:58 PM
Pour ma part je vous comprends, car j'ai travaille en France pour 3 ans, avec ma famille. Grace a mon sejour, j'ai appris assez de Francais d'oser vous repondre : bienvenue! Meme si je trouve taper les accents trop penible, et je ne risque point gagner la prix Pivot.
Le pretre de notre eglise vient d'annocer son homosexualite; impossible de supprimer la idee qu'ils peuvent entre la majorite. Mes filles me taquine pour ma homophobie; elles demandent toujours quand je vais voir Montagne Cassedos.
Posted by: CS | Mar 1, 2006 6:31:30 PM
Trans. of Jean-Baptiste's comments (with apologies if I mess up)
No one is going to understand me among these anglophones (and can't translate me online because of the lack of accents), but I would like to tell you that, in my opinion, the questions you pose in your article on the Catholic situaion in Quebec are in fact reasonable. Not exactly nice, but reasonable. In such situations, someone has to pose that which comes in the spirit [inspired questions? sorry, it's late, but i hope you get the gist of this anyway]to everyone. And that is what you have done.
Jean-Baptiste et CS, voudriez-vous que je poste le méthode pour faire les accents sur l'ordinateur? J'ai les instructions pour le Mac, et je peux les trouver pour le Windows :)
Posted by: Luthien | Mar 1, 2006 10:00:08 PM
Penible à taper j'ai voulu dire; non pas inconnu :-)
I find it interesting that French keyboards devote a precious unshifted key to the letter ù, which as far as I know is used in only one French word (où). This completes the off-topic drift ...
Posted by: CS | Mar 2, 2006 12:51:19 AM
Merci, Luthien, mais c'est vrai ce que dit CS. On sait bien comment faire marcher ces sacrés ordinateurs, mais c'est ennuyant de taper les accents. On tape beaucoup plus vite sans accents. Je crois quand même qu'il vaut mieux les taper pour aider nos amis anglophones monolingues à nous comprendre. Merci. Des autres francophones (et francophiles) en ligne, c'est super.
Posted by: jean-baptiste | Mar 2, 2006 10:00:48 AM
This is what Fr.Neuhaus speaks of when he talks of the "truce of 2006" a comparable to the lack of adequate discipline after Humane Vita came out in the 60's.
The Bishops of Canada & the U.S. need to have a game plan on dealing with obstinate/apostate priests. Otherwise things will get out of hand and the flock will stray.
I wonder how many of the 19 are Jesuits? (if any)
.P.S. I am a young attorney discerning for the Priesthood (probably the Jesuits) & I am actively seeking input from any/all at Touchstone’s .
You can reach my Blogspot below.
attorneydiscerning.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Fitz | Mar 2, 2006 2:42:29 PM
CS, more off topic drift...do you know if french keyboards are available in the US and if so how expensive they are? As a French major I'm constantly fighting the darn shift-to-make accents thing, which is fine for shorter papers or posting on the web but a real pain for longer things. Although even that is better than drawing them all in by hand after the fact! (which I used to have to; it did many bad things to my grades)
Posted by: Luthien | Mar 2, 2006 8:18:52 PM
Totally off topic, but I would think you wise, Luthien, to pursue this matter, not because accents are easier to type on the French keyboard. They aren't. They still require a goodly amount of shifting. The location of the letters on the keyboard can also be confusing to those accustomed to the American version. All of this not withstanding, training one's fingers to use this keyboard is a good thing for anyone majoring in French to do. I imagine that Dell or any other company doing business in Quebec will have these keyboards for sale online. Bonne chance.
Posted by: jean-baptiste | Mar 3, 2006 9:52:08 AM
I see, so repentence is now just a word we use that sounds "good", unless of course you are gay. Then your past is fodder for the smarmy and sinless serial monogamists that I know most of you to be. (Divorced how many times?)
Hypocrites, vipers, whitewashed toilet bowls.
Posted by: Jennifer | Mar 3, 2006 12:55:17 PM
Jennifer, dear, some of us (like me) have never even been married once let alone divorced and most of the others have been married only once. If you bothered to read other posts/articles here, you'd know that divorce and remarriage are not exactly popular here. You might also knock off the name calling; vigorous discussion is one thing, calling people toilet bowls quite another. Furthermore, the question is his heterodox theology more than his past.
Mr. Podles, was the last sentence of your post justified? Unless you have evidence, it is mere insinuendo, and not even elegantly expressed. It would behoove all of us to remember that St. Mary of Egypt started her adult life as a prostitute and ended up a saint. Please let's stick to objecting to heterodox theology and avoid speculations about others' lives.
Jean-Baptiste, merci!
Posted by: Luthien | Mar 3, 2006 2:00:35 PM
Jean-Baptiste's advice to look in Canada was good. French keyboards can be had for around $30. You can also tell WinXP and MacOS to switch to the French keyboard layout no matter what your keyboard markings are. Then you could make a little strip to guide you for the top row or pencil in the French glyphs on your existing keytops (System Preferences->International on Mac). When I lived in France I had to buy US keyboards: trying to adapt to another layout caused me a lot of pain in the hands--plus, to make room for the accented characters, numbers become shifted and commmon punctuation is a little harder to get to. For a programmer, this was too much! Plus, some of the letters are in different places. The French layout is callled AZERTY for that reason; if you search for that, you'll find lots of vendors. (But my advice would be to spare your hands). Apologies if you knew all this.
best,
Posted by: CS | Mar 3, 2006 7:06:05 PM
I know nothing of the situation Mr. Podles addresses in his post apart from what I’ve read here, but I do know enough of the Touchstone editorial mindset specifically, and the imperiled and distressing state of modern Christianity in general, to trust that his last remarks are not made without careful, deliberate thought as to whether that “cheap shot” is necessary.
The same Jesus who said “Blessed are the peacemakers” also said “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay” and “I am come to send fire on the earth.” Christianity is not a game. It is not a juggling entertainment or a happy-family social construct or a shiny gloss to distract us from the ugliness of sin and make the boo-boos look all better. It is the proscribed interface between God and man, the temporal and eternity, the abyss of Night and unapproachable Light. It is literally life and death.
It is also a place where we must believe in the opposing Evil – with the capital “E”. Or do we not?
Sometimes the only way to prove to complacent minds that there is indeed a hornet’s nest at the bottom of the garden is to poke a stick in it and see what happens. (Or one can avoid making a scene and continue to send the children to play all unawares. We wouldn’t want to cause unpleasantness, now would we?) I may well be wrong – and frequently am – but I’m willing to trust to Mr. Podles’s integrity on this one.
Posted by: Baillie | Mar 4, 2006 4:04:30 PM
That Bishops traffic in whores is nothing new. That some Bishops in the US have pimped their "Mother, the Church" to protect and promote their own careers is nothing new. That some Bishops have pimped children to protect and promote their own careers is nothing new.
That so many catholic men (including priests, bishops and popes) have stood by useless and impotent as this was done and called their gutless, nutless, cowardice of docility "virtue" is also nothing new.
Salute the uniform all you want. For the pathetic manling in it, all I've got is a middle finger and an invitation to step outside.
Posted by: Bubbles | Mar 5, 2006 7:19:40 AM
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