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July 09, 2007
Cultural Noise
I'm a mathematician by hobby, and that means that I'll often lie awake in the morning pestered by numbers, especially when they don't seem to add up. Here is something I've been puzzling about for years. Back in the Renaissance, the population of Europe was a small fraction of what it is now, and that's not even counting the "European" cultures in the US, Canada, Australia, Brazil, and elsewhere. Now the Renaissance saw perhaps the greatest flowering of artistic genius in the history of the world -- and I am not somebody who despises the art of the Middle Ages, as the Renaissance artists themselves did (hence "Gothic," initially an insult, meaning "fit for barbarians"). So why do we not enjoy ten times that flowering right now? If Renaissance Italy produced a single Michelangelo, why do we not produce ten? Not to mention ten Raphaels, ten Leonardos, ten Titians, ten Mantegnas, ten Caravaggios (!), and literally thousands of those fine second and third rank artists that every little village could boast?
One answer is that the geniuses of our day are doing other things, like inventing computer programs such as the one I'm using now to write this. That will cut down severely the "pool" of possible artists, but still -- if it cuts down the pool by a factor of 20, we could still expect, if not a Michelangelo and a Raphael, at least one or the other. But we don't have either one. Maybe that's because, even in the arts, the artists are pursuing something else, such as film? Possibly; but as much as I like John Ford and Howard Hawkes, I'm leery of granting them the status of Titian, not to mention Shakespeare, Cervantes, Spenser, Tasso, or the other giants in literature of that age.
Another possibility is that the cultural requirements to produce a Michelangelo are now lacking. That is, at any one time there are probably many men walking around who could be a Michelangelo, but who will never be one, because the opportunity isn't there -- and by that I mean much more than that the fellow is a poor farmer boy, a "mute inglorious Milton." I mean that to be a Michelangelo, you have to stand upon the gigantic shoulders of a culture that will grant you a sublime vision of all the created world and all of human history, governed by the Providential hand of God. Without a vision like that, you do not get the very greatest art; and no such vision can be produced privately. The Taj Mahal does not spring from private inspiration. Tolkien could only write The Lord of the Rings because he enjoyed such a vision, provided him by his faith and by his being steeped in the heroic literature of the middle ages.
I still suspect that that's not a sufficient explanation. There must be a thousand factors less grand than that. Michelangelo had the advantage of the old apprentice system, surviving in the Renaissance studios, where boys of various ages would be supervised by the master and his immediate successors and would be taught how to mix colors, how to paint a bit of an angel in an inconspicuous place, how to draw up a cartoon, how to nail together the scaffolding, and so forth. (As an aside: I know that the studios were all male; that they produced Michelangelo, not to mention the hundreds of others, any one of whom, if he were alive now, might well be among the greatest living artists alive in the world, is their own justification.) That sort of place no longer exists; it's been replaced by the school, that retarder of genius.
Still hardly enough. I'm also wondering to what extent the very ease with which our works are made public produces so much cultural noise as to block the work of thought. The medieval theologians read one another's works and commented upon them, but the communication was necessarily slow, and that meant that only a few people, practically speaking, could comment, and they would comment only after much deliberation. In other words, you had to have quite a few theologians writing and teaching and thinking all through Europe to produce a Thomas Aquinas; but if you had more, or if they were able to communicate with one another instantly, or if they were all encouraged to publish right away, you never would have produced a Thomas Aquinas. The waves would have interfered with one another. Most of the time the mind would be distracted or diverted by noise, by the relatively insignificant, by responding to something that should have been settled for good a long time before, so that the argument could move on. If something like this cultural static is true, then that would explain the numbers -- rather, it would imply that, after a certain point, even in pretty decent cultural conditions, the more artists, philosophers, theologians, and writers of literature you have, the less likely it will be that any of them can fight their way above the static and rise to the level of Michelangelo, Plato, Thomas, or Milton. (The hard sciences proceed in a different manner; I won't venture to say how much or how little this phenomenon applies to physics or biology.)
The spur for these puzzlings, this weekend: snooping through the ubiquitous Glory and Praise hymnal, a work which verifies the rule that no matter how bad you think things are, they're really much worse. It's not just that the songs are, most of them, unsingable by a congregation (for reasons that I can enumerate in another posting), and plagued with banal lyrics or awful poetry, cloying sentiments, ditzy theology, and bad grammar. It's that none of the many editors seemed even to notice the fact. They think they are in the middle of a Renaissance. How is this possible, unless the whole idea of greatness or even pretty-darn-good-ness in art has suffered a complete collapse, under the burden of noise, noise, noise?
Back in the nineteenth century there was a staggeringly bad poet named William McGonagall, who gave up the plough to regale his audiences with pious works on temperance and straight living. Google on his name (my "link" function is not working today, for some reason), but don't drink while you're doing it, unless you like to aspirate your beer. The poetry in Glory and Praise -- unless it is a direct citation of Scripture -- is better than McGonagall, but not by a whole lot, and is not nearly as good as the lyrics of the sometimes too-sweet American, Fanny Crosby, who wrote one hymn I do like a great deal ("Jesus, Keep Me Near the Cross"). The difference is that everybody in Victorian England at least knew that their fellow was a well-intended and ignorant plowman. But they didn't have quite the level of noise we suffer now.
Posted by Anthony Esolen at 11:21 AM | Permalink
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Here, for the lazy, is the best site I've found for McGonagall. I've signed up to receive a "poetic gem" by email every Sunday.
Not to bust Dr. Esolen's chops, but he was actually a weaver, not a ploughman.
A sample verse for the even lazier:
Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay!
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.
Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 9, 2007 11:38:01 AM
>>>The spur for these puzzlings, this weekend: snooping through the ubiquitous Glory and Praise hymnal, a work which verifies the rule that no matter how bad you think things are, they're really much worse. <<<
As I have found out to my dismay with the promulgation of the new Ruthenian liturgy. Apparently, when the Intereparchial Liturgical Commission read Chesterton's observation that "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly", they took it as imperative.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 9, 2007 11:47:22 AM
Great question! This is one of the biggest questions of our day.
Smithsonian had an article on the guildsmen who restored the Statue of Liberty.
In the Middle Ages (and Renaissance) the arts were communal in a way that is unseen in our culture except at pharmaceutical companies. Thus, Bernini had apprentices that did work at his direction. Thomas Aquinas was a teacher who lived in a religious community which provided not only food, shelter, and protection but also clerks to take dictation.
A professor told me of a nun in his grad school. The assignment was to generate a bibliography of some work. Most students chose obscure works that had few printings, but this nun chose a popular, pious work. Her whole convent was working to track down all of the printings of the work.
Posted by: Fred | Jul 9, 2007 11:49:23 AM
I'm not at all convinced that there aren't many artists producing works as great as those of Michelangelo and Cervantes, although I still reserve a special pedestal for Shakespeare, Spenser, and Donne. I do think that today's noise, communicated within and across many cultures, can make it difficult to focus on just a handful of "great" artists. I'd also support the truism that it's difficult to discern greatness in one's midst: witness again the varying reputations of Shakespeare, Spenser, and Donne, the last of whom was nearly forgotten until Helen Gardner, T. S. Eliot, and others revived interest in him in the early 20th century.
Our hymnals actually support this idea: though we have fortunately forgotten and gradually left behind us many of the bad hymns of the 18th century, we are still hanging onto many 19th-century flops, and we've culled hardly any of the last century's musical mishaps from our hymnals. With time, we will hopefully excise "Jesus Is the Man for Me" and other musical abominations.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 9, 2007 12:01:24 PM
Ethan, I prefer this stanza from today's McGonagall gem:
And I hope heaven will be
Mr James Scrymgeour's reward;
For his struggles on behalf of the poor
Are really vexatious and hard.
Posted by: Occasus | Jul 9, 2007 12:14:16 PM
The explanation is clear. To quote the famous parting speech by Orson Welles in The Third Man, the best movie ever made:
"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- they produced Michaelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce...? The cuckoo clock."
Posted by: maria horvath | Jul 9, 2007 1:07:26 PM
>>"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- they produced Michaelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce...? The cuckoo clock."<<
So all the great artists are being slaughtered in the Sudan?
Posted by: Michael | Jul 9, 2007 1:14:34 PM
Michael, that's an example of irony.
Posted by: maria horvath | Jul 9, 2007 1:54:31 PM
The prospect of ten Caravaggios makes me shiver with horrified glee. This post was worth it for that alone (or would be, if it weren't also worth it for other reasons).
Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 9, 2007 2:07:17 PM
The most creative artists today are in the commercial art fields. Artists have usually followed the money, despite what they say.
Posted by: PAUL KURITZ | Jul 9, 2007 5:13:35 PM
>>The prospect of ten Caravaggios makes me shiver with horrified glee. This post was worth it for that alone (or would be, if it weren't also worth it for other reasons).<<
The real question is, how long would it take for them to be either gunned down or locked up for murdering pimps?
Maybe viz. Wells, we just live in too stable a time. Somewhere between anarchy and affluenza lies the land of adventure from which comes great art.
Or, alternatively, we've just forgotten what good art is and why one might care about it. O tempora! O mores!
Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 9, 2007 5:32:18 PM
Indeed. For example the fellow who invited the iPod interface. Industrial design is where such artists hide. Since they usually hide behind brand names you'll never hear of them though.
Posted by: Nick | Jul 9, 2007 5:39:52 PM
I may have mentioned this before; if so, forgive me. I had a deliciously fun, subversive moment a few years back when I read McGonagall's 'Silvery Tay' poem at an open stage sponsored by a very left-wing, barky poetry group here in Pittsburgh. Not only was that in itself a huge grin (reading doggerel to a bunch of other doggerel-producers who took theirs SO seriously) but in my introduction to McGonagall's poem, I stated that he was very widely considered the worst poet of all time, "at least until Maya Angelou came along," but that frankly, I didn't think he was so bad. In fact, I said, if they listened closely they might hear some poetic effects that would remind them somewhat of Bruce Cockburn.
They knew they were being skewered, because if looks from liberals could kill.....
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 9, 2007 6:36:58 PM
I don't know.
Today, you might say the real talent is being snapped up by advertisers and computer programmers.
But in the 15th century, a lot more of that talent was dying in mud-hole peasant villages without any shot at even being able to read.
I don't think it's a problem of supply...
Posted by: Seth R. | Jul 9, 2007 6:44:57 PM
>>The real question is, how long would it take for them to be either gunned down or locked up for murdering pimps?<<
So you're saying he'd have a future in the world of "urban" art, perhaps? Tagging, ryhme-busting and whatnot? I could see it. Those warehouses downtown are just crying out for some spraypaint chiaroscuro, and I'd imagine the world would weep at the unveiling of his "Martyrdom of Tupac." Whether they would be tears of thanksgiving or disgust, though, I couldn't say.
Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 10, 2007 2:34:23 AM
And by "he," of course, I mean "they." "Ten Caravaggios" is as yet an appalling novelty, and is still ungainly to the mind.
Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 10, 2007 2:36:08 AM
>>So you're saying he'd have a future in the world of "urban" art, perhaps?<<
I'm just saying that if he tried living his 17th century lifestyle nowadays, he would spend a lot of time in the hoosegow, and the rest in the V.D. clinic. Maybe we could find a better example than old Caravaggio.
Still, I'd love to see Grafiti artists develop some chiaroscuro. Also, I would hope that he'd paint something besides just stylized iterations of "MMdC".
Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 10, 2007 8:19:54 AM
With all due respect to Katherine, I think the history of literature and art shows rather that the production of works of genius is highly erratic. In some endeavors (drama, sculpture), almost nothing of any real value is produced for many centuries ... I don't believe for a moment that we have any authors running about unnoticed who can rival Shakespeare, for a few simple reasons:
1. Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante.
2. The cultural support is not there (as I said in the post).
3. The cultural acid IS there.
4. The early twentieth century is long gone, and it produced no Shakespeare.
5. There is not a single poet in English since Browning who can hold a candle to Spenser or Milton, let alone Shakespeare.
6. There is not a single religious lyricist in English since Hopkins who can hold a candle to Herbert.
7. There is no reason to suppose that the situation right now is any better than it was in the mid-20th century or late 20th century.
8. Other European literatures are also in the tank, though because they haven't as thoroughly been taken over by the academy, they haven't suffered nearly as much as English has.
9. As for painting, well -- name your favorite painter of the 20th century who can be mentioned in the same breath with the first rank of Renaissance artists. Second rank, possibly: Sargent? Hopper? Klee? that charlatan Picasso? Wyeth? Or name a single thing that any of the modern painters achieved that was not already achieved by the Baroque painters, such as Rembrandt, the late Titian, Tintoretto, etc.
10. Take a good look at a mid-size city newspaper from 1930 and compare it to what we have now. The popular culture has also tanked.
11. It is not true that great artists always or even very often have to wait till people appreciate their greatness. A list of people from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance who everybody knew were great:
Dante
Petrarch
Giotto
Masaccio
Donatello
Raphael
Michelangelo
Leonardo
Erasmus
Spenser
Sidney
Shakespeare (um, you don't otherwise get invited all the time to perform before the King)
Milton
Jonson
Ariosto
Tasso
Bernini
Bramante
Correggio
Holbein
Rubens
Titian
Tintoretto
Palestrina
Josquin
Monteverdi
Every once in a while you find somebody who has to wait for the fame -- often it's an ill personality that gets in the way:
Rembrandt
Caravaggio
Donne
Herbert
Marvell
Certainly by the time Milton was young, everybody knew how great Shakespeare was -- that was a couple of decades after the bard's death. Boccaccio himself became the first professor of Dante, and his life overlaps that of the Florentine poet....
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 10, 2007 5:42:16 PM
With all due respect to Katherine, I think the history of literature and art shows rather that the production of works of genius is highly erratic. In some endeavors (drama, sculpture), almost nothing of any real value is produced for many centuries ... I don't believe for a moment that we have any authors running about unnoticed who can rival Shakespeare, for a few simple reasons:
1. Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante.
2. The cultural support is not there (as I said in the post).
3. The cultural acid IS there.
4. The early twentieth century is long gone, and it produced no Shakespeare.
5. There is not a single poet in English since Browning who can hold a candle to Spenser or Milton, let alone Shakespeare.
6. There is not a single religious lyricist in English since Hopkins who can hold a candle to Herbert.
7. There is no reason to suppose that the situation right now is any better than it was in the mid-20th century or late 20th century.
8. Other European literatures are also in the tank, though because they haven't as thoroughly been taken over by the academy, they haven't suffered nearly as much as English has.
9. As for painting, well -- name your favorite painter of the 20th century who can be mentioned in the same breath with the first rank of Renaissance artists. Second rank, possibly: Sargent? Hopper? Klee? that charlatan Picasso? Wyeth? Or name a single thing that any of the modern painters achieved that was not already achieved by the Baroque painters, such as Rembrandt, the late Titian, Tintoretto, etc.
10. Take a good look at a mid-size city newspaper from 1930 and compare it to what we have now. The popular culture has also tanked.
11. It is not true that great artists always or even very often have to wait till people appreciate their greatness. A list of people from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance who everybody knew were great:
Dante
Petrarch
Giotto
Masaccio
Donatello
Raphael
Michelangelo
Leonardo
Erasmus
Spenser
Sidney
Shakespeare (um, you don't otherwise get invited all the time to perform before the King)
Milton
Jonson
Ariosto
Tasso
Bernini
Bramante
Correggio
Holbein
Rubens
Titian
Tintoretto
Palestrina
Josquin
Monteverdi
Every once in a while you find somebody who has to wait for the fame -- often it's an ill personality that gets in the way:
Rembrandt
Caravaggio
Donne
Herbert
Marvell
Certainly by the time Milton was young, everybody knew how great Shakespeare was -- that was a couple of decades after the bard's death. Boccaccio himself became the first professor of Dante, and his life overlaps that of the Florentine poet....
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 10, 2007 5:44:02 PM
"Or name a single thing that any of the modern painters achieved that was not already achieved by the Baroque painters, such as Rembrandt, the late Titian, Tintoretto, etc."
John Singer Sargent's Triumph of Religion, "second-rank" though Sargent may be.
I think that production - and only that production in the entire century (that I know of) - rivals the majesty of the Renaissance and Baroque masters. It doesn't surpass it, and maybe it doesn't even equal it, but, by thunder, it makes a damned spirited attempt. I've often wondered about Nikolai Roerich, too, but he'd certainly be in that "second rank," if anywhere.
I also wanted to suggest Gustave Dore, John Martin or Nikolai Gay, but they're all too early.
Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 10, 2007 6:59:05 PM
Craft traditions produce art traditions (they are necessary but not sufficient, of course.) Consider violin making. All the best violin makers the world has ever seen lived in a small, unimportant town in northern Italy. Stradivari aside, they all belonged to one of two families, and they mostly worked alongside one another in the same shops.
Suzi Gablik pointed out that American universities graduate as many MFAs every five years as there were people in 15th-c Florence. However, these MFAs are not craftsmen. They are angling for a spot in the world semi-intellectual twilight in which Julian Schnabel and Jasper Johns spookily smash plates on American flags. You can been an AHHtist in this world without any craftsmanlike abilities at all - consider Damien Hirst or Yoko Ono.
Posted by: cantemir | Jul 10, 2007 9:31:55 PM
What is the source of artistic genius? From accounts I have read about authors creating characters and story lines for their books it seems to me that God (acknowledged or not) must be involved as the source of creative inspiration.
If we do not see artists and authors today that rise to the caliber of the past, is our cultural noise interfering with God's blessing such that we are no longer capable of recognising creative insipration or is God sending us a message about the priorities of our culture.
Posted by: William Wilcox | Jul 11, 2007 8:55:29 AM
Tony, I think a number of your judgments, particularly regarding the 20th century, rely on taste. It's difficult to argue with taste, and I really don't wish to. But here are my responses to a few of the statements in your last post.
1. Your taste seems to run to length and epic magnitude. There are some Chinese and Korean poets who wrote miniaturist poems of exquisite mastery, which retain much of their beauty in translation. I'm not an expert on Asian poetry, though, so I won't go into great detail.
4. The early twentieth century didn't produce a Shakespeare, but it did come up with T. S. Eliot, W. H. Auden, and William Faulkner - and that's just among the Anglophone writers. Don't forget Chinua Achebe in the latter half of the century.
5. In my estimation, Shakespeare's non-dramatic verse is often overrated, though I think his plays are without equal. I'd nominate some of the shorter poems of Southwell, Donne, Herbert, Hopkins, Brooks, Levertov, and Wilbur - to name just a few - as works that more than vie with the sonnets, let alone Venus and Adonis or The Rape of Lucrece.
6. My admiration of Herbert and Hopkins approaches idolatry, but I believe that Richard Wilbur and Czeslaw Milosz have written religious lyrics of comparable weight and beauty.
7.-8. These statements are very broad, but I think there is ample reason to hope for our contemporary literatures. Toni Morrison's Beloved is a magnificent work, scarcely twenty years old; and Orhan Pamuk, Wilbur, and Achebe are with us yet.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 11:59:53 AM
Has no one mentioned Tolkien yet, as a high-quality 20th century writer?
Posted by: Peter Gardner | Jul 11, 2007 12:14:14 PM
Tolkien's works are high-quality, yes, but even now they're not considered "mainstream," like the other works that have been mentioned so far. I'm okay with that: I prefer to hob-nob with the cult followers who still speak Sindarin and read runes, etc.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 12:19:36 PM
What we have here is Professor Esolen banging the table louder and louder that his preferences in art and literature are the ones that should rule the roost, and because the world isn't honoring these, the world is sinking ever deeper.
Maybe this comes from lording it over undergrades too long. "Taste" and "judgment" in art all too often boil down to trying to separate oneself from the masses. Ah, look how sophsticated I am; run along now, would you, while I recite Latin witticisms to myself and rattle off lists of paintings.
There's lots of dreck today. And there's always been dreck. We only remember the good stuff or what caught on and was printed over and over again and then taught over and over.
There's more dreck these days, surprise, because there are more and more people producing literature and art. And there are more and more people who have the time and money to produce works of art. To Professor Esolen's chagrin, apparently, they're not all European Catholic or Anglican males.
There is so much good poetry, fiction and art being produced today that no one could read and reflect upon it all. That's really the trouble Esolen has: the world has ceased to be a closed universe. It's moving too fast, there's too much noise. I guess if we could get the peasants back in the fields where they belong, women in the nursery, why, things would be grand in the art world.
"1. Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante."
Really? Any number of 20th century novelists can rival these three. Would any of these three be as famous today if they hadn't been put on a pedastal for centuries?
"2. The cultural support is not there."
If you mean the world isn't a closed metanarrative, where if you don't publically buy into that narrative there are ways of dealing with you, then, yes, the cultural support isn't there.
But, in most ways, the cultural support is richer. More books are bought and sold today than ever before, and not all of them are dreck, though perhaps they don't meet the professor's approval. And the soil for art is richer: the intersection of cultures, religions and science.
"3. The cultural acid IS there."
Amen brother. Let the acid burn! Does Professor Esolen think that the classical-Christian synthesis of late medieval-Renaissance Europe would somehow last? Or that it should have lasted? Christianity as an incarnational religion can interact with any culture. I mean, really, how many classical allusions must one know to be educated or have good taste. And packing works with classical allusions can be gamesmanship as much as anything else.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 12:30:49 PM
"'"Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante."
Really? Any number of 20th century novelists can rival these three.' "
Ok, here's a number -- five. Name five 20th century novelists who can rival Tony's big three. And if you mention Mailer, Updike, or Irving, I suggest that you be banned from this site immediately as having nothing of substance to say.
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 12:36:57 PM
Rob,
Michael Cunningham (of The Hours fame), Paul Auster, Yukio Mishima, Chuck Palahniuk, Aldous Huxley.
The last two are obsessed with polarizing dystopia and personal mental issues, but that has nothing to do with whether they "rival" the so-called big three or not in regards to storytelling and linguistic command. The first two are similarly concerned with realism and the interactions between people, but Cunningham in particular is brilliant with this. Mishima isn't Anglophone, that's for sure, but he was brilliant. The Sound of Waves and The Sea of Fertility tetralogy belong on every bibliophile's shelf of 20th century literature.
Not to mention T. S. Eliot for his epic poetry in regards to Dante and Homer. As far as playwrights go, it's not fair primarily because no one talks in Elizabethan English anymore, and we have no reason to expect a playwright to use metered verse in dialogue. It's just not the fashion. It's a matter of taste.
Or John Steinbeck.
Or Dai Sijie.
Or, God forbid, Neal Stephenson (though he's a niche author).
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:06:31 PM
Rob,
What was my comment on the other thread about self-righteousness, would-be totaltiarns that you objected to? Hmm. And now you want folks banned if they don't agree with you.
Here's a deal. I'll raise you five; here are 10 novelists who are on the level of Homer, Shakespeare and Dante. They are not in a particular order:
1. Virginia Wolf. (Beautiful, lyrical, insightful; her passages can be as golden as anything in Shakespeare.)
2. Phillip K. Dick (For a self-professed Gnostic, his work grapples with what's already here and is coming.)
3. Shusaku Endo (The powerful interaction of Japan and Christianity; human suffering)
4. Larry McMurtry (an American Homer-Dante who tried to deconstruct the Illiad of the West and simply couldn't; he's too honest, his prose and storytelling (and the story itself) too powerful.
5. Robert A. Heinlein (Don't put your nose up; Heinlein's Starship Troopers is a profound meditation on violence and its role. And, like Shakespeare, he knows how to tell a story.)
6. Saul Bellow. (Simply great stuff.)
7. Neal Stephenson (Talk about epic; Stephenson is your man for today.)
8. V.S. Naipaul (The coming of modernity is hard, painful even, but worthwhile.)
9. Salman Rushdie (The power of the pen.)
10. Orson Scott Card (The Ender's Series is epic in scope and profoundly philosophical without losing sight of the story.)
11. Chiuna Achebe (grappling with colonialism in Africa).
12. John Updkie -- if only to get banned :)
There are more.
Want to try poets next?
Cheers,
Sam.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 1:09:08 PM
"As far as playwrights go, it's not fair primarily because no one talks in Elizabethan English anymore, and we have no reason to expect a playwright to use metered verse in dialogue."
I think it's fair to compare various forms of English, not to mention different languages. And don't forget that Shakespeare's plays contain large chunks of prose.
Moreover, great as Shakespeare is, much of his playwriting leaves plenty of room for improvement. Take, for example, at least 50% of The Taming of the Shrew; nearly all of Pericles, Troilus and Cressida, and Titus Andronicus; and large chunks of the early comedies. As much as I love The Comedy of Errors - the first comedy with a promise, so to speak - I have to admit that its claims to "greatness" are pretty scanty. Stoppard's Arcadia easily matches it, though his oeuvre isn't as nearly fine as Shakespeare's, taken in sum.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:15:05 PM
Sam,
I obviously side with you on novelists...but I'm not sure we have a strong case for 20th century poetry, if only because it's not comparable at all to renaissance poetry. It rejects forms (with the exception of Langston Hughes, who would appear on the list without question) and therefore, with use of free verse, can't really be compared to a sonnet. You can compare thematic content alone, not poetry as a genre--rhyme, meter, length, scheme...it just doesn't fit.
That said, just because they use free verse doesn't mean their bad poets. It just means they use free verse.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:15:26 PM
Katherine,
Finally someone else who thinks half of The Taming of the Shrew was lackluster, if not downright poor. That play is the most overrated piece I have ever read (next to Laura Esquivel's Like Water for Chocolate, what a horrible novel). But it has Shakespeare's stamp on it...
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:17:16 PM
True. And I'll put The Invention of Love's Housman up against Troilus and Cressida's Patroclus, any day of the week.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:19:15 PM
Really though, Michael, good as they may be, do you think that any of these will have 500-year staying power? Of the thousands of books published since the beginning of the 20th century, how many are still being read even 50 years later, let alone 500?
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 1:23:18 PM
Yikes!
Robert Heinlein was tremendous, a companion of many a daydream of my adolescence and a few worthwhile thoughts, too. But he was no Dante - maybe a Benito Cellini.
I love "Ender's Game" and "Starship Troopers", and there are nutritious nuggets in both, but I don't think comparing them with the Western canon is at all justified. "I like them as much as, or more than, I like Homer, Dante, et al." is not equivalent to saying "They are as good as", and the chances that anyone will read Card or Heinlein in two hundred years are exceptionally low - hardly anyone reads Jules Verne anymore, after all.
As for McMurtry, "who tried to deconstruct the Illiad of the West and simply couldn't...", well, even if that made any sense it wouldn't raise the status of a readable, literary craftsman who churns out potboilers quite compatible with the tastes of his particular time. Again, "I enjoyed a book very much" is quite a different statement from, "that's a Great Book".
Otherwise-forgettable authors who have been artifically put on pedestals abound in this age of multicultural kowtowing...while men like Shakespeare, however you might think they got onto their pedestals in the first place, have resisted centuries' worth of competitors' attempts to supplant them on it.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 11, 2007 1:25:46 PM
I think when you filter the dreck, what's left is what's being read 500 years later. Ever heard of John Fletcher and Ben Jonson? Yeah, but you're not reading them in high school. Ever heard of Clive Cussler? Yeah, but they're not reading him in grad schools, whereas Stephenson had a course dedicated to him at Southeast Missouri (e.g. the school that houses the largest Faulkner library) "Cyberpunk Fiction as a Post-Modern Genre."
I'm not sure if Stephenson or Cunningham or Auster will survive 'til 2500 (heck, I don't know if the world will survive 'til 2500), but doesn't that say more about the culture than the writers? I am convinced that someday, there will be books from our era by someone lauded as "masterpieces."
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:31:44 PM
Oh, and on playwrights:
The play has been supplanted as a performance medium by movies. Now, thank God The Hulk won't be around in 500 years, but Citizen Kane, the Star Wars saga (just to name two of dozens) should definitely make it a few more centuries.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:39:47 PM
"I am convinced that someday, there will be books from our era by someone lauded as 'masterpieces.' "
Yes. And Stephenson's very good. However, being lauded at a current university, particularly in a course with "Post-Modern" anywhere in its title, is more embarassing than indicative of quality...better to say he may endure DESPITE academic interest, unless you think "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" will be the most enduring work from our century...
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 11, 2007 1:41:53 PM
Joe, I echo your 'Yikes!' with a 'double yikes!' and agree wholeheartedly with your post.
Sam -- the crack about being banned was a joke, with reference to your 'would-be totalitarian' line on the other post. No comments on your list, other than my agreement with Joe. Are you going to tell us next that Radiohead and Pearl Jam are as good as Beethoven and Bach?
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 1:43:31 PM
'Twasn't my point, Joe. And I think you knew that. Being lauded at a university is indicative of something greater than pulp fiction.
And Buffy? The series or the movie? Because the series was bloody brilliant.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:43:49 PM
>>Are you going to tell us next that Radiohead and Pearl Jam are as good as Beethoven and Bach?<<
Completely different musical genres. That's like saying "let's compare a haiku witha novel." But Shostakovich, a 20th century composer, might be...
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:45:52 PM
Radiohead and Pearl Jam would best be compared to the "Willow Song," the mid-sixteenth-century traditional English song that appears in modified form in Othello. It's challenging to compare popular musics, though, since most people - including scholars - know so little about early popular songs.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:55:00 PM
Although I'm not a Shosty fan, there are folks who would agree with you. That, however, wasn't my point to Sam. It's not a question of genre, but one of quality. In my opinion, comparing Virginia Woolf with Shakespeare is like comparing Pearl Jam with Bach. The latter both produce music, and the former both write, but's that about as far as the comparisons go.
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 1:55:38 PM
As to Ben Jonson, I read him in high school - but should high school administrators, any more than poets, really be the unacknowledged legislators of the world?
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:57:34 PM
>>It's not a question of genre, but one of quality. In my opinion, comparing Virginia Woolf with Shakespeare is like comparing Pearl Jam with Bach. The latter both produce music, and the former both write, but's that about as far as the comparisons go.<<
But how do you compare absolute quality across genres? I mean, you hit with the Wolf v. Shakespeare--Wolf wrote novels, Shakespeare plays and poetry, and that's about as far as the comparisons go.
I mean, which is better, the Notre Dame or St. Peter's? One's a neo-Roman bascilica, the other a Gothic cathedral. They're both church buildings, and cathedrals in the absolute sense of bishops' seats, but they really are incomparable beyond that.
Now, I think you can say one genre is better than another, and thus provide a bias to say the best in one genre is better than another, but that only holds if it is accepted that one genre is better than another--if Elizabethan poetry is better than 20th century prose, then Shakespeare trumps Wolf. If not...eh.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 2:03:26 PM
One could think of it this way, perhaps: This poem is a great poem; that novel is a mediocre novel; therefore, this poem is a greater work of art than that novel. Or this novelist is a great novelist; that poet is a mediocre poet; therefore, this novelist is a better writer than that poet.
Of course, an agreed-upon definition of what makes great literature would be helpful, too.
Posted by: Beth | Jul 11, 2007 2:17:19 PM
"One could think of it this way, perhaps: This poem is a great poem; that novel is a mediocre novel; therefore, this poem is a greater work of art than that novel. Or this novelist is a great novelist; that poet is a mediocre poet; therefore, this novelist is a better writer than that poet."
You beat me to it, but that's what I had in mind, Beth.
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 2:20:17 PM
Beth & Rob,
I don't think that holds precisely because it is much harder to write a competent sonnet than free verse. It is much more difficult to spend weeks, months, sometimes years on one novel due to the simple problem of length, let alone complexity, than it is to spend a passing 20 minutes on a poem.
I know. I do both as a hobby, and it took me a week to write one chapter and five minutes to write one poem. A mediocre novel may be a mediocre novel, but I've read many a mediocre play (The Taming of the Shrew, for example) that I thought were better than "great" books (Like Water for Chocolate, for example). That's why it's a question of taste, not of substance, in regards to cross-genre comparisons.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 2:25:41 PM
"if Elizabethan poetry is better than 20th century prose"
Oh, I'm tempted, very tempted. Unofficially, then, I say: If anything is better than 20th-century prose, it's 20th-century poetry, and if anything is better than 20th-century poetry, it's Elizabethan poetry and prose. (Read Bacon's essays and Tyndale's 1526 New Testament if you doubt me when it comes to prose.)
But this is my personal predilection, and I don't pretend that it should have any bearing on the question of absolute quality among writers.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 2:28:55 PM
Joe,
I'm not saying that since I like Heinlein, Stephenson, Card, etc., that is the reason why they are on par with Dante, Homer, and Shakespeare. I also happen to like Dante and Shakespeare and Homer. The epic poem still has practioners, and I'd say Frederick Turner is one par with any of the big names, but the epic poem is not nearly as "in" as the novel.
Thus, regrettably, Frederick Turner will not be remembered as well as he should in be, I fear. The novel, for this age, is the equivalent of epic and narrative poetry, and, in many cases, could be compared to plays as well.
A few comments:
I'd suggest that Heinlein is far more than an adolscent fixation, although he wrote some stuff better than others. I don't care for his weird sexual stuff.(Shakespeare also wrote some bombs as well.) Starship Troopers, in particular, will be read in 200, 400 or 500 years from now. It's not a shoot 'em up. It's profound and solidly written reflection on men training to kill, and the necessity of that training and killing, which is a subject not going to fade away anytime soon.
As for Card, his Ender's saga is a good example of the novel serving as an epic; he has the ability to capture of a vision of humanity and its ramifications is on the level of a Dante or Homer.
Larry McMurty a scribbler of potboilers? As you might put it, Yikes! There are ups and down in his work. So are there in Shakespeare. Is Titus Andronicus on the same level as Hamlet? I think not.
Founding a nation is great and terrible thing, as we can see in Virgil's Aeneid. That same theme runs through the best of McMurtry's work. And he's honest enough in his writing that his own politics can get overtaken by the sheer immensity and power of the tale he's telling. McMurty will last.
You write, "Otherwise-forgettable authors who have been artifically put on pedestals abound in this age of multicultural kowtowing...while men like Shakespeare, however you might think they got onto their pedestals in the first place, have resisted centuries' worth of competitors' attempts to supplant them on it."
But, Hemingway's boxing metaphors aside, that's really not how the canon works. If I say "Shakespeare," I'm not just referenceing an English playwright and his works. I'm referencing a whole constellation of meanings that have developed over years. I'm referencing to countless high school English teachers saying how good he is; parents who may not have read him but knew that well everyone said he was good and everyone can't be wrong; other authors quoting Shakespeare's characters, thus lending credence and giving themselves intellectual street cred; the odd ability of Shakespeare to be enlisted into everyone's camp -- he's gay! he's not gay! he's a capialist! he's not! he's an elitist! he's a democrat, etc. If this is repeated long enough, it sticks. Call it the Shakespeare meme, and it's not going away anytime soon. Nor should it.
But that doesn't mean other memes aren't going to be fashioned and aren't replicating as we write this.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 2:39:51 PM
"[I]t is much harder to write a competent sonnet than free verse."
I wouldn't say that. It's extremely easy to write bad free verse, but I doubt that many of us could write free verse as fine as the better portions of Song of Myself. As obnoxious as I often find Whitman, his free verse is masterful. Denise Levertov and R. S. Thomas likewise raised open-form poetry to astounding heights.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 2:42:39 PM
I dispute the suggestion that Tony Esolen's selections are based primarily on taste, such as a preference for epic forms per se or for the obsolete metered verse of Shakespeare's plays.
E.g. even if "King Lear" was written in prose, it would be the greatest English language play (and perhaps greatest play in any language) of all time. Its greatness lies not just in its magnificent prose, but in its unparalleled and profound insights into deep truths of human nature -- virtue, vice, justice, ambition, love, envy, mercy, cruelty, redemption, etc. -- in a plot line of extraordinary power and individual characters realized with consummate skill.
As to epics vs. miniatures -- I treasure minatures. There are few works of art as profound as e.g. the Op. 116-199 piano pieces of Brahms. But there are reasons that we give greater honor to epic accomplishments such as e.g. Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen". [Though I *love* to reepat all the savage critical barbs hurled against Wagner over the years.] The labor and skill required to execute truly great epics that are coherent unities (as opposed to many ramshackle bloated works, however enjoyable, such as "Gone With the Wind") is far greater than for a minature, however skillfully executed and concentrated the latter may be. We look to the larger scale forms as the finest exemplars of a culture for this reason, not simply because of their size.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jul 11, 2007 2:46:25 PM
I've only read a couple of Phillip Dick's short stories and seen movies based on his longer works. As a gripping story teller I think he easily beats Shakespeare's weaker work. We've also had Asimov's "Bicentennial Man" which is probably one of the best stories of the 20th century. I give "I Robot" to HS graduates for its meditations on what it means to be human (along with "The Prince" for evil and some church history).
Posted by: Nick | Jul 11, 2007 2:49:15 PM
James,
Have you read "Bicentennial Man"? Or is fantasy only fair for Shakespeare(1).
(1) Huge gripe of mine. Shakespeare can do witches, fairies, odd locals, but fantasy and sci-fi still aren't "Hi Art".
Posted by: Nick | Jul 11, 2007 2:55:16 PM
Wasn't there a literary critic who said something along the lines that you shouldn't read a book until it's at least ten years old? That way, you could tell if it had even the most miniscule amount of staying power. I don't agree with him entirely but I see his point. For instance, remember when Norman Mailer was all the rage? Who reads him now except old 60s radicals and young lefties trying to be hipper than thou?
I find Virginia Woolf unbearably tedious. Shusaku Endo is very good but I don't think he's one for the ages. I'm with Joe on McMurtry. Rushdie I'd put in the same boat with Umberto Eco -- more enjoyable for the ideas than the actual writing. Updike can turn a great sentence but he can't tell a story. Palahniuk -- the "Fight Club" guy, right? I haven't read him, but I sure hope the book was better than the godawful movie.
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 3:33:26 PM
Does it really matter whether a piece of art is one of the "finest exemplars of a culture"? Every work of art is a product of its culture, among other influences, but I don't think its merits - or lack thereof - are best assessed according to either the place they give the work in its surrounding culture or the place they give its culture in the rest of the world.
I do think that unspoken preferences for certain cultural characteristics and forms - e.g., "Western" vs. "non-Western" narrative structures and the novel vs. the lyric - have unduly shaped the tone of this thread.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 3:41:07 PM
As an aside, Updike has turned some extraordinarily bad sentences, as well. There's a reason he's been recognized for some of the most unappealing sex-related scenes of all time. I think all proponents of abstinence-only sex ed should shut their yappers and hand out copies of Gertrude and Claudius to students, instead. Those poor kids'll walk the straight and narrow for a good, long while.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 3:46:25 PM
"'Twasn't my point, Joe. And I think you knew that. Being lauded at a university is indicative of something greater than pulp fiction.
And Buffy? The series or the movie? Because the series was bloody brilliant."
I wasn't being disingenous, Michael. I really, truly do NOT believe that being lauded at a university today IS indicative of anything greater than pulp fiction. I think writings far worse than pulp fiction, such as Maya Angelou's poetry or Roberta What's-her-name the Marxist fraud, are lauded at universities daily. I do have a pretty high opinion of Stephenson from reading "Snow Crash" - but a low opinion of academia's current ability to judge quality.
There is something called the "Journal of Buffy Studies", and there are BtVS academic conferences...maybe the series WAS brilliant; "Firefly" was. However, if it was brilliant, it was brilliant pulp fiction.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 11, 2007 3:48:47 PM
"I do think that unspoken preferences for certain cultural characteristics and forms - e.g., 'Western' vs. "non-Western" narrative structures and the novel vs. the lyric - have unduly shaped the tone of this thread."
Let me, for one, not leave my strong preference for Western cultural characteristics "unspoken!" And given that this is a Dr. Esolen thread, I don't think Western cultural loyalty is at all out of place.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 11, 2007 3:51:57 PM
Regarding Western cultural loyalties, it's beyond my limited time at the moment to take on all of Touchstone's editorial staff and readership's occidental leanings. Let me just register a friendly "hmph."
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 3:55:52 PM
Oh, my, this thread has taken off without me! Well, here I am to declare my authoritative pronouncements and end the debate. Enter the Platonist.
>>I mean, which is better, the Notre Dame or St. Peter's? One's a neo-Roman bascilica, the other a Gothic cathedral. They're both church buildings, and cathedrals in the absolute sense of bishops' seats, but they really are incomparable beyond that.<<
Simple! Notre Dame is better. That's because Gothic is better than neo-Classical. Both, of course, are far better than the new styles of the 20th century. Notre Dame and St. Peter's are both paragons of their respective styles, so they're very good examples by which to make the comparison. The Gothic more thoroughly elevates the human spirit and brings one into communion with the divine. Therefore it's better.
>>Now, I think you can say one genre is better than another, and thus provide a bias to say the best in one genre is better than another, but that only holds if it is accepted that one genre is better than another--if Elizabethan poetry is better than 20th century prose, then Shakespeare trumps Wolf.<<
Simple again! The answer is yes, some genres are better then others. For example, verse is better than prose. Always and everywhere. The best poetry is superior to the best prose. Inferior works blur the distinction, of course, because it is always possible to debase an art beyond redemption. In fact, the more noble an art is, the worse it can be debased, as Lucifer proves (and McGonagall).
In poetry, epic is superior to lyric. Even the Romantics knew this. Any other opinion is modernist error.
>>We look to the larger scale forms as the finest exemplars of a culture for this reason, not simply because of their size.<<
This is correct. My one caveat is that the novel cannot be taken as a replacement for the epic, because while it is in long form it is weighed down by its prose. It is also a deceptive art form, luring many inferior practitioners to it by pretending to be simple and straightforward. The popularity of novels at the expense of epics is a sign of the end times.
Sam, you are wrong about the 20th century. Artistically it is a wasteland, as dark as the 7th century. As in any dark age, however, there are glimmering lights. They are the bioluminescent algae to Shakespeare's supernova.
You are also, of course, wrong about Shakespeare. The reason so many consider him the best writer in English is because he was. Other English literature is good to the degree that it is like Shakespeare.
Katherine, you have committed the unforgivable offense of saying something nice about Whitman. Your disclaimer that you usually don't like him is insufficient. Please make a full repentance and do pennance by reading all of Emily Dickinson's poetry immediately.
Well, that should just about do it. Now that everyone has been set straight, you may carry on thanking me.
Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 11, 2007 4:13:33 PM
Ethan (or should I say Aristotle?), I'll wager I've read as much Dickinson as you have, and I'm happy to admit that she's far superior to Whitman. Perhaps we should go have a quote-off in some dark corner of cyberspace - after you go get yourself properly shriven, that is.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 4:22:24 PM
"Does it really matter whether a piece of art is one of the 'finest exemplars of a culture'?"
Yes, absolutely -- at least, if one believes in any standards at all instead of the pseudo-intellectual flatulence of relativism.
"Every work of art is a product of its culture, among other influences, but I don't think its merits - or lack thereof - are best assessed according to either the place they give the work in its surrounding culture or the place they give its culture in the rest of the world."
After the incredibly trite opening, I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean -- if it means anything at all. But, taking a guess as to what is meant, I don't see that anyone here has argued or implied that the greatness of an artistic work is "best assessed" with reference to the culture that produced it -- though it is certainly rightly assessed within the context of that culture.
As for the concluding phrase, if works of art are presuemd to be capable of giving a "place" (status?) to their cultures "in the rest of the world" at all, then that implies the existence of universal standards for judging all works of art and puts aesthetic relativism on the trash heap where it belongs. With that, I happily agree -- and I'm sure Tony does too. One does well to begin with the classic aesthetic triad of order, clarity, and haromony.
"I do think that unspoken preferences for certain cultural characteristics and forms - e.g., 'Western' vs. 'non-Western' narrative structures and the novel vs. the lyric - have unduly shaped the tone of this thread."
Prove it, instead of casting vague aspersions. People posting here refer to Western cultural products and forms for a simple and good reason --they're Westerners, and they can best speak to what is most familiar to them. That does not constitute a comment per se on non-Western cultures and their art forms -- except perhaps for someone afflicted with a raging infection of the current mutation of the political correctness virus called "multiculturalism". And Tony cited plenty of examples of poetry, so that the "lyric" was not excluded.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jul 11, 2007 4:33:55 PM
...maybe the series WAS brilliant; "Firefly" was."
Oooo, "Firefly"! Another fan!! Rent it.
Got THAT out of my system. Gettin' just a little too highbrow here for me.... ;-)
Heinlein? Did someone mention Heinlein??
Posted by: Bill R | Jul 11, 2007 4:39:06 PM
"The answer is yes, some genres are better then others. . . .Inferior works blur the distinction, of course, because it is always possible to debase an art beyond redemption."
Obviously my previous postings elsewhere on rock music are making an impression on you, Ethan! I happily await your imminent donning of sackcloth and ashes for your musical sins.
:-) :-) :-)
I agree that Whitman is disagreeable poetry (and worse metaphysics), but somewhat ironically his texts have served as the basis for some of the finest choral pieces of music of the 20th c. -- e.g. Vaughan Williams "Sea Symphony" and Hindemith's "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd." A critic once suggested, and I'm inclined to agree, that it is extremely difficult to set truly great prose and poetry to music because they are full self-sufficient, whereas music can take a pedestrian text and further illuminate what that only partially conveys.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jul 11, 2007 4:44:19 PM
James, I don't believe I stated that poetry was belittled - merely certain shorter forms, such as the lyric (which is the form I've studied most closely and my particular favorite).
I don't agree with your opinions or your manner of expressing them, but your commendation of the Sea Symphony makes us comrades, after a fashion.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 4:51:19 PM
I just happened across this discussion. I agree with Rob, James, and others on that side of the question, and am surprised that anyone would even put Heinlein et.al. into the same category as Shakespeare. Those writers have their merits, but they're in a different class altogether. It's like comparing a Little League baseball team to the Yankees (or the Red Sox, if you prefer). But this is one of those things that you either see or don't see, and I doubt argument will change anybody's mind.
Regarding Tony's post, I do think cultural noise is part of the problem, and its effects are felt in many other ways.
Posted by: Maclin Horton | Jul 11, 2007 5:10:26 PM
Ethan's post and $3.38 will get you a cup of coffee.
Ethan, you are wrong about the 20th century. It will go down as the highest achievement of literature and art in the history of humankind --except for the 21st century, if we aren't reduced to atomic residue and warring barbarisms by fanatical Muslims who seem as certain of their religious prouncements as Ethan is of his artistic and literary pronouncements. :)
Aristotlean-medievalism is dead, Ethan. And thankfully so. Your rules are so quaint. Epic beats lyric. The end of the age is coming with the novel. You'd better watch I hear something called the "wireless" is coming and you know that Satan was the king of the air.
"Other English literature is good to the degree that it is like Shakespeare." Nonsense. You're going to hurt yourself scraping and bowing before the idol if you're not careful.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 5:14:14 PM
I like Marvel Comics, but I wouldn't hold it up as one of the finest exemplars of Western culture art.
I do think it made Stan Lee a bucketload of money though.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Jul 11, 2007 5:18:54 PM
"Cultural noise" is another word for freedom. God bless the noise.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 5:20:04 PM
Since my irreverent little note got sandwiched between two eloquent posts by resident art and music critic, James Altena, I just hope he noticed the: ;-) Obviously Heinlein isn't in Shakespeare's league. But when it's late at night, and the text of Hamlet begins to float before my eyes, well, um, when no one's looking...
Now I'll go listen to the "Sea Symphony."
Posted by: Bill R | Jul 11, 2007 5:58:12 PM
Safely following in Sam and Bill R's footsteps...
I confess to really enjoying the move "The Matrix". I mean, it's not a high-brow culture, Best Picture Oscar winner like "The English Patient" but I still liked it better.
Boo-hoo, I'm an uncultured heathen.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Jul 11, 2007 6:36:23 PM
Categories like "high brow" and "low brow" are so vague. Under anaylsis, they break down into nothingness. In the end, does the work accomplish what it set out to do? And, yes, does it speak to us? If it doesn't "speak," no one will ever remember it.
Many works end up valued because others like them or say they like them and those people are respected, so the work in question is respected. You don't have to be a flaming post-modernist or leftist to know that important works have been marginalized because the writer was a woman or non-white or didn't fit the definition of what is "literary fiction." In that last category, think of how writers of fantasy and science fiction have been kept out of the pantheon, even though they're dealing with so much larger issues than middle-class angst mixed with over-written porn.
There's no shame in liking The Matrix. I even like two and three, though not as much. The first one is an amazing; it has a wonderfully powerful vibe to it.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 7:10:21 PM
James has an interesting idea that I think is useful; that there are absolute measures of art. I just think he takes the definition too far in that he believes that meaning can be extracted from any work (like music) without application of a context. I think the language metaphor he uses breaks down at that level. That being said I think there are great novels out today that rival at least individual works of Shakespeare and are epic in nature.
Heinlien may not be the best all around author but Starship Troopers is a wonderful book.
Posted by: Nick | Jul 11, 2007 8:08:18 PM
>>>Heinlien may not be the best all around author but Starship Troopers is a wonderful book.<<<
So is "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 11, 2007 8:11:50 PM
"James has an interesting idea that I think is useful; that there are absolute measures of art. I just think he takes the definition too far in that he believes that meaning can be extracted from any work (like music) without application of a context."
Nick, you misapprehend me. I don't deny the contribution or importance of context. I deny the relativism that asserts only context, and/or makes context supreme over universals. There are things that are good or bad (aestheically, morally, logically) in an absolute sense; but context can provide important background for understanding how they are good or bad. E.g. to get away from art for the moment for an easy example, pederasty is absolutely bad, but cultural context explains its limited acceptance among the upper classes of 5th c. Athens. And then there are things that are morally neutral per se, but are relatively good or bad within their particular context. Eating chocolate ice cream might be good or bad depending on whether it is done for refreshment or gluttony, whether the person has e.g. a diabetic condition where eating it is injurious to health or not, etc. And then there are good and bad varieties of chocolate ice cream by manufacturer.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jul 12, 2007 4:58:08 AM
"However, if it was brilliant, it was brilliant pulp fiction."
Speaking of pulp fiction, does anyone else here subscribe to the minority view that Quentin Tarantino is an overrated hack, and that PULP FICTION was a huge stinking pile of poo? Just wondering.
"...you know that Satan was the king of the air."
No doubt, as evidenced by the huge cultural wasteland known as television.
"Ethan, you are wrong about the 20th century. It will go down as the highest achievement of literature and art in the history of humankind ."
Only in your post-modernist/relativist-addled mind, Sam. Art -- who have we got? Picasso, Dali, Pollock, Rothko? Please. And what about those wonderful expressions of excellence, Bauhaus & Dada? And such purveyors of puke as Serrano, Mapplethorpe, Warhol, etc.?
With literature I think the 20th century fares a bit better. After all, there are Eliot, Conrad, Proust, Greene, Faulkner, perhaps Hemingway and Steinbeck, Frost, the Fugitives, Hardy's poetry. Hard to say, really, as in a lot of ways it's too early to tell what's going to last and what isn't.
'I do have a pretty high opinion of Stephenson from reading "Snow Crash" - but a low opinion of academia's current ability to judge quality.'
Right you are, Joe. Academia's current trend is to elevate a work according to its message, or the sex/nationality/color of its author, with only secondary (if any) attention to its quality.
'"Cultural noise" is another word for freedom. God bless the noise.'
Noise, in my experience, tends to drown out more desirable sounds and as such can't be blessed. Who wants to hear a lawn mower outside their window while they're listening to Palestrina? The fact that a lot of modern people actually like noise is yet another indicator of where we are culturally.
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 12, 2007 6:42:34 AM
>>>Cultural noise" is another word for freedom. God bless the noise.<<<
I have noticed, however, that superior art is produced when there are at least some external restrictions on expression. Perhaps that is due to the need of the artist to develop a degree of subtlety to circumvent the censors. Conversely, when anything goes, well, everything goes. Particularly quality.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 12, 2007 6:46:16 AM
Douglas Wilson at Blog and Mablog
http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp
touches on the subject of this blog in his post 'Why "Nothing is Important'. Speaking to what he terms, todays "liturgical poverty" and the "ugliness of the modern world" it reminded me of the original comment about the Glory and Praise hymnal in this thread.
"True "creaturely" creativity of any kind (aesthetic, liturgical, etc.) must therefore come from acknowledging that God is the only one who is creative ex nihilo. Those who lose their lives for Christ's sake find them. In the same way, those who abandon all hope of autonomous creativity amaze the world at their creativity. The one who is creative is the one who knows he cannot be. And the one who demands to display his creative powers to all the world becomes dull, predictable, boring – like just another avant garde event."
It seems most of the posts in this thread dance around the issue of the quality that makes a work of art, poetry or literature great. Often it seems to come down to individual preference, instead of particular qualities that have universal transcendent meaning.
James Altena says "if works of art are presuemd to be capable of giving a "place" (status?) to their cultures "in the rest of the world" at all, then that implies the existence of universal standards for judging all works of art and puts aesthetic relativism on the trash heap where it belongs. With that, I happily agree -- and I'm sure Tony does too."
If it is true that universal standards are established by God, the appearences of the attributes in works of art that can be judged by these standards are, I believe, a blessing from God.
Anthony Esolen says "If something like this cultural static is true, then that would explain the numbers -- rather, it would imply that, after a certain point, even in pretty decent cultural conditions, the more artists, philosophers, theologians, and writers of literature you have, the less likely it will be that any of them can fight their way above the static and rise to the level of Michelangelo, Plato, Thomas, or Milton".
If there appears to be fewer great works produced today, would this mean that cultural static suppresses or in some way interferes with the creative inspiration from God or are we simply less able to recognise it in individual artists? Or does God withhold inspiration for His purpose?
Posted by: William Wilcox | Jul 12, 2007 7:54:32 AM
"A critic once suggested, and I'm inclined to agree, that it is extremely difficult to set truly great prose and poetry to music because they are full self-sufficient, whereas music can take a pedestrian text and further illuminate what that only partially conveys."
Which is why, as a more flippant critic suggested, "ballet got all of the story lines which were even too silly for opera."
"In that last category, think of how writers of fantasy and science fiction have been kept out of the pantheon, even though they're dealing with so much larger issues than middle-class angst mixed with over-written porn."
The best ones (Tolkien; Huxley; Orwell; Bradbury) are well on their way into the "pantheon", given the recent nature of the genres they wrote in. Meanwhile the lowbrows must console themselves with the satisfaction of promoting important ideas and discussion of important questions (in a few cases, anyway, like Heinlein!), and with making lots and lots of money. Who knows; a couple representative ones will even endure a while.
As for minorities being kept out because they're minorities - give me a break; dozens of minority mediocrities have had enormous affirmative academic efforts elevating them to status their works cannot possibly long sustain them at, while (for instance) St. Augustine and Alexander Dumas have had secure places for centuries without once being tossed out - or receiving undue boosts - for African blood. Ink is a deal thicker than blood, over the centuries, though ethnic or so-called "gender" identity may trump all in academia during our brief, mad period.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 12, 2007 8:05:39 AM
It seems that no one has accepted my authoritative pronouncements. It seems some would rather wallow in the mud of philistinism than cleanse themselves in the jacuzi of truth.
So allow me to go further, hopefully to blast the benighting grime off you with the sand of Platonic analysis.
James, you do not carry your critique of rock music far enough. Not only is rock debased and inferior, so are the more elaborate late forms of "classical" music. The concept of a symphony is inherently impure, using excessive instrumentation that detracts from the purity of the musical form. In fact, all polyphony is necessarily confused and inferior. Once this fact is recognized, it is possible to understand that the chaotic and irrational progression of notes known as "melody" is also debasing. Not all notes are created equal. Some are inherently more pure and elevating than others. I refer, of course, to the D above middle C, the only note that is really worth playing.
The same obviously goes for literature. Once you strip away every decadent innovation and pander to the barbarian public, you are left with one preeminent English word: "hath." This is the essence of poetry by which every other piece of literature must be judged -- and of course found wanting. Other words are fine for mere communication (like in this post), but only "hath" may be considered true art.
And, of course, the same goes for visual art, which partakes of the form of art in so far as it resembles an orangish-red circle with a 3 in. radius. It's hard to describe the color, of course, but it has been philosophically deduced to be (R:180,G:70,B:3) in RGB color space. You can go here to see it, though you will not see art there because that site displays colors in squares (*shudder*).
I hope that makes it clearer to everyone what constitutes true standards in art.
Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 12, 2007 8:28:44 AM
Ethan,
Thanks for clearing that up.
In your honor, as well as in a gesture of reconcilation towards the Oriental traditions, I offer the following haiku:
Ethan hath, hath, hath
With an orangish-red light
Illuminated us. He hath.
You will note that of the seventeen syllables of this poem, only four are actually "perfect", although the "Eth" syllable in "Ethan" approaches the perfection of "hath". Still, that's closer to perfection that I've ever managed before.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 12, 2007 8:58:16 AM
Better copyright it quick, Joe, or Maya Angelou might steal it.
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 12, 2007 9:03:17 AM
Ah, Ethan, you are one of the middle D apostates. (No doubt you worship at the altar of the Dorian mode, which Plato rightly derided for its properties that incite violence.) Need I really remind you that A 440 hath been the only pure note since Western intonation was standardized in the late 19th century?
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 12, 2007 9:13:49 AM
Ethan, I always knew you were an insufferably elitist, arrogant, pompous, prideful, judgmental, self-loving Pharisee.
Welcome to MereComments. ;-)
Posted by: Truth Unites...and Divides | Jul 12, 2007 9:26:40 AM
>>Need I really remind you that A 440 hath been the only pure note since Western intonation was standardized in the late 19th century?<<
Late 19th century. Well, there's your problem. Just like the modernists to toss out all of human history and organic development for a pseudo-scientific standard.
No one of true taste and wisdom has ever liked A 440.
Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 12, 2007 9:28:18 AM
>>>Which is why, as a more flippant critic suggested, "ballet got all of the story lines which were even too silly for opera."<<<
Opera is superior because you usually get a ballet thrown in for free, whereas I have never seen anyone sing an aria or chorus at a ballet.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 12, 2007 9:34:02 AM
Opera is actually the reason that A 440 became standard for tuning, because conductors competed to have their orchestras tune higher and higher to make the more brilliant vocal lines more exciting. Audiences and musicians both started to complain about all the screeching, though, so A 440 was agreed upon as the tuning standard. It's still somewhere between a semitone and whole tone higher than the Baroque norm.
Anyway, so much for organic development.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 12, 2007 9:46:10 AM
Wow -- make comments about our age's thinness of artistic production, and people get personal, real fast.
I am a great fan of T. S. Eliot, Grahame Greene, W. H. Auden, the short stories of D. H. Lawrence, Flannery O'Connor ... I have become a great admirer of the early 20th century novelist Sigrid Undset (I'm in the middle of The Master of Hestviken right now). I like Max Frisch, Francois Mauriac, Italo Calvino, Solzhenitsyn, Heinrich Boell. I think it is absurd to compare any one of these, for breadth and depth, to Shakespeare or Dante. I'll go further. I think it is absurd to compare any of them, as novelists (with the possible exception of Undset) to Charles Dickens or George Eliot.
But let's back it up a bit, shall we? Can we agree that some ages lose the ability to produce art of high quality? I mean, let's set aside our own age -- PLEASE. Almost no literature of enduring value is produced in Italy between Giambattista Marino (who is borderline, and almost unreadably Baroque) and the great Alessandro Manzoni. That's 200 years. After the deaths of the late Baroque painters and sculptors, those arts in Italy too grow ossified, producing competent but unimaginative stuff -- there is hardly an Italian artist of the first rank, other than the cold classicist Canova, from 1650 to the twentieth century.
There are no great Roman poets after the age of Augustus Caesar. There are a couple of pretty good poets in the late first century and early second: Persius, Juvenal, Statius. That's it. Despite the general peace that obtained through much of the empire in the second century, we get no poetry. Dramas were still being performed, but after Terence in the 1st century BC, we get no great dramas in Rome, none. Seneca's tragedies are all bombast, and they are the best we have.
German literature goes into eclipse with the decline of the Minnesaenger in the late Middle Ages, and only comes into its own again in the late classical period.
A century after the great age of Periclean Athens, Greece produces no literature to compare with the histories of Herodotus and Thucydides, the plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aristophanes, and the dialogues of Plato. We do get scientific work, and excellent scholarship, and mathematics -- and a few very good writers here and there.
Civilizations do decline and fall -- and whole disciplines of intellectual endeavor go off the tracks, sometimes permanently. It is not true that the men who studied Aristotle and theology in the schools after Scotus and Ockham were less intelligent than the contemporaries of Aquinas were. But they had started down a long dead-end road. Some interesting (for specialists) philosophy and theology they did produce, but by the time of Francis Bacon and Descartes it had pretty seriously dried up.
One comment about Shakespeare: it is hard for a modern reader to understand what is going on linguistically and thematically in these plays. That's because we are not in the habit of a kind of kaleidoscopic, "typological" reading; we are not trained to read a sentence as reflecting fifteen other sentences simultaneoulsy and in three or four ways. As "simple" as The Taming of the Shrew is, had anybody written its equivalent in the 20th century, it would immediately have brought him fame as one of our foremost playwrights. It is vastly more complex and humanly insightful (even though it is a farce) than is Shaw's Pygmalion or John Ford's The Quiet Man (which I think is far superior to Shaw). Questions that the play leaves wide open -- for some fascinating analysis: What is the relationship of the "induction," with the drunken Sly, to the play proper? How is the induction's Duke like Petruchio? Why do Petruchio's servants express surprise at the master's behavior? What is the connection between the badly run household when Petruchio plays the madman, and the badly run household of Signor Baptista? Why is it likely that the callow "hero" will be henpecked -- what is it about him throughout the play that suggests that he himself is internally disordered, and a subverter of proper order? What is the connection between his relationship to his father and to Bianca's father, with the untamed Kate's relationship to Baptista?
It might be the 30th best play Shakespeare ever wrote. As much as I admire Tennesee Williams, Arthur Miller, and Eugene O'Neill, they could at their best barely outdo it for its sheer richness. And we are not talking about King Lear.
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 12, 2007 9:59:54 AM
Tony -- I can almost hear the response coming now, a paraphrase of the immortal words of The Dude:
"Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
:^)
Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 12, 2007 10:12:28 AM
The mention of Sigrid Undset is interesting: she's certainly an author who's fallen prey to a great deal of "cultural noise." Though she is a Nobel laureate, she's hardly remembered today. I would say (i.e., it is just, like, my opinion, man) that her characters are far more richly drawn than most of Dickens', as fine as his are. Of course, Dickens is a large target, since he created over 13,000 distinct characters.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 12, 2007 10:27:42 AM
Rob,
Yeah, dude, you are so right about that!
It is helpful to jolt people back into at least neutral turf. So here is the challenge:
Name for me one great Roman poet, dramatist, or artist after Juvenal.
Name for me one great Italian painter between Caravaggio-Carracci-Reni-Giorgione-Tinoretto and the 20th century.
Name for me one great German poet from 1400-1750. Not very good, or interesting, but great.
Name for me one great English poet between Chaucer and Wyatt.
Name one great French dramatist between Moliere-Racine-Corneille and the age of film.
Name a single historian between Tacitus and Machiavelli who could approach either one of them by ten miles.
The arts do sometimes go south. And they don't always just shift to a different art -- sometimes all the arts go south at once.
Here I'll venture a suggestion that will call down the wrath of Sam upon me. The peak of American filmmaking is also long past (1935-1963). American film's annus mirabilis was arguably 1939, when The Wizard of Oz might have been the third or fourth best movie made. Make the Wizard of Oz now, and you have the film of the decade. There are reasons for the slow decline -- not least among them, the lack of a unifying vision of the world, provided by the Americanism and Christianity of the early directors. Without that vision, you don't get the very greatest art. I don't understand why it should be hard for Christians to understand this -- or why non-Christians with an inclination for anthropology should find it difficult, either.
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 12, 2007 10:38:16 AM
Katherine,
I see where you're coming from. Dickens is sometimes his own worst enemy -- but he is a mad genius, and full of the richest and widest variety of characters ever to grace a novelist's pages. I think that Kristin Lavransdattar is a more interesting character than any he ever created. But nobody but Dickens could give the world Scrooge, Mr. Micawber, Mrs. Gamp, Sam Weller -- you can go on and on and on. Kristin's father Lavrans is about the most sensitive portrait of a truly Christian man that I've ever seen....
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 12, 2007 10:44:31 AM
>>>Civilizations do decline and fall -- and whole disciplines of intellectual endeavor go off the tracks, sometimes permanently. <<<
On the other hand, the values and tastes of civilizations change over time, and periods that previously were thought to be barren or inferior get reassessed, and artistic merit is found in what was once considered barbarous or naive, even worthless. Thus, the aesthetes of the Renaissance denigrated almost the entire corpus of medieval art and literature in their pursuit of the "classical"; art critics and historians saw no value whatsoever in Byzantine art, literature or music until quite recently, having swallowed hook, line and sinker Gibbon's assessment of the Eastern Empire as a degenerate shadow of true Roman glory. The "Dark Ages" turn out not to have been so dark. The Enlightenment laughed at the ornamental excess of the Baroque and Rococco, while the Romantics derided the Enlightenment as cold and devoid of feeling.
It is therefore premature to write off any era permanently, or to think that the aesthetic judgments of today will withstand the test of time.
Always remembering, of course, that time is a great filter that weeds out much that is inferior (and yet, perversely, can cause us to lose much that is truly great), and that in every age, 90% of everything is crap. Given that we have the capacity to produce, reproduce and distribute several orders of magnitude more material than past generations, we merely have a much greater volume of crap through which to wade. But I am sure the gold is in fact there, under the dross, waiting for us to discover it.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 12, 2007 10:47:20 AM
"Name for me one great English poet between Chaucer and Wyatt."
Now, here we'd agree: there aren't any, or there aren't any known to us now. Wyatt's own contemporaries and immediate successors frequently praised him as the first great English poet after Chaucer. (There are great 15th-century dramatists, though they are mostly anonymous, and let's not forget the great poet William Langland, Chaucer's contemporary and yet another victim of cultural noise - so perhaps you'll agree that the challenge is a bit tendentiously set up.) I don't think this fact supports many of the more sweeping claims made in this thread about the general decline of "great literature" in certain eras, particularly our own.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 12, 2007 10:53:44 AM
I heartily second Stuart's 10:47 post.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 12, 2007 10:55:03 AM
>>But I am sure the gold is in fact there, under the dross, waiting for us to discover it.
<<
I am glad somebody said this.
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Jul 12, 2007 11:18:09 AM
What Stuart said :)...though I don't think he mentioned Gothic as another example (since its in vogue right now).
James,
I'm not saying that you don't take context into account, I'm saying that some art, including music without lyrics, is only meaningful in another context. In much the same way that tones in non-tonal languages have no moral impact without words attached to them.
Ethan,
Classic.
Posted by: Nick | Jul 12, 2007 11:21:26 AM
>>Michelangelo had the advantage of the old apprentice system ... it's been replaced by the school, that retarder of genius.<<
Traditional schools are not the best environments within which to nurture our savants. Michelangelo may well have "suffered" from some form of autistic spectrum disorder (he is said to have been aloof, a loner, singularly preoccupied with his work, and to have had social and communication deficits.) One in ten autistics has savannt skills. Savants have "islands of genius" -- extreme ability which usually falls into one of the areas of music, art, calender calculation, or spatial ability, and which may or may not be accompanied by deficits in other areas. Einstein, for example, had savant-level visual-spatial skills, but was not similarly outstanding in language ability. From what I've read by Darold Treffert, an expert on savantism, the condition doesn't automatically bestow people with exceptional abilities, but instead frees up normally restricted brain mechanisms that allow the savant to hyper-focus on certain skills in a way normal brains cannot. Traditional schools, with their diverse curricula, would frustrate a savant by providing incessant distraction from his or her special interest. The apprenticeship system or homeschooling, which allows for more independent exploration and development of a child's preoccupations, probably work much better for child savants.
Posted by: Francesca | Jul 12, 2007 11:25:02 AM
"I'm saying that some art, including music without lyrics, is only meaningful in another context. In much the same way that tones in non-tonal languages have no moral impact without words attached to them."
And I firmly disagree, Nick. Though again, as I said before on other threads (in resposne to another person), This presents a simplistic caricature of my argument about music. It is not just about "tones" (pitches), but about genres and pieces of music, which are (or pretend to be) complex meaningful combinations of ptich, rhythmn, harmony, instrumentation, etc. Pieces of music are instead like lyric poems, or novels, or plays, etc. My moral-musical argument is no more about mere tones than Tony's arguemnt about literature is merely about individual words or successions of words.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jul 12, 2007 11:32:25 AM
I'm curious as to how there could be an "absolute measure of art"? It seems to me that any such measure would be highly subjective since one would be trying to measure and quantify value, rather than facts. To try to quantify art, which is by its nature qualitative, would kill it, reducing it to science. An algorithm that "measures" the value of a work of art would have to use static criteria, whereas creativity is dynamic and innovative.
Posted by: Francesca | Jul 12, 2007 11:33:43 AM
>>> The peak of American filmmaking is also long past (1935-1963). American film's annus mirabilis was arguably 1939, when The Wizard of Oz might have been the third or fourth best movie made. ... There are reasons for the slow decline -- not least among them, the lack of a unifying vision of the world, provided by the Americanism and Christianity of the early directors. Without that vision, you don't get the very greatest art. I don't understand why it should be hard for Christians to understand this -- or why non-Christians with an inclination for anthropology should find it difficult, either.<<< - Tony Esolen
I kinda understand where you're coming from. But understanding does not confer total agreement. I love movies that have great stories. And old movies and new movies alike have had wonderful stories that have stirred my soul.
Granted, there's commercialism which occasionally, nay often, interferes with the artistic enterprise in film-making, but I don't begrudge that reality. Nor do I begrudge the technological advances in special effects of movies. Some say that they swamp and overwhelm the story. This is a bit uncharitable. They occasionally do so at the expense of solid narrative, but let's also look at how special effects enhance the narrative too.
I like the old black-and-white classic movies, but I also greatly enjoy today's special-effects laden movies too.
As a general principle, I like what I read in one of Peter Kreeft's books: Don't subscribe to chronological snobbery. Don't revere the old and ancient as being necessarily better, nor unthinkingly believe that what's new in this age is reflexively better than what's occurred in the past.
Sometimes older is better and sometimes newer is better. (And you can take that to the bank.) :-)
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Jul 12, 2007 11:44:42 AM
Well, we can all play this game. So name one great Greek poet between Homer and Hesiod and Pericleian Athens. Does the fact that we have no Greek poetry before Homer mean that there was no Greek poetry? Were there no bards who composed the epics that were the raw material for the Illiad?
And just because we see a decline in one art form in a civilization does not mean that all art declines with it. In fact, some forms can actually continue to develop and mature even while others go into eclipse. Thus, while there were no truly great Latin poets and playwrights after Juvenal and the Silver Age, there were still great Latin writers and philosophers (Marcus Aurelius comes to mind). There were especially great architects and engineers, who built immortal masterpieces in stone and concrete that not only withstand the test of time, but continue to influence us today (how many buildings are modeled on the Pantheon? How many on the Baths of Caracalla?). There were also many great artists who material did not survive the ages--men who are anonymous and known only by fragments of their work, whether it is painting, sculpture, ceramics or pottery.
People think Roman art sank into darkness after the third century, that the Age of Constantine and his successors was one of continual decline. But that is merely because we have only a limited sample from which to choose, and because we take the aesthetic of the Augustan period as normative (though, in fact, Augustan art was highly derivative and based on Hellenistic models, which in turn were derived from a mix of Athenian and Oriental influences. As we learn more of the supposed decline of Roman culture, we see that very high artistic standards continue to exist, particularly in the fine arts, slowly transformed by the emergence of Christianity into a new artistic sensibility. Yes, it's different from art of the Augustan age, but different does not necessarily mean inferior, particularly when art is being used to convey a world view. To say that Augustan art is intrinsically better than Roman art of the 4th, 5th or 6th centuries is simply to say that you believe the pagan worldview is superior to that of the Christian; that a first century statue of Augustus is somehow better than the 6th century Christ of Sinai, or that the Forum of Trajan is greater than Hagia Sophia. You can't judge them in that way, because each excels at doing what it intends to do; both are beautiful in their own right, and thus both are great art.
The fact is, in most eras before our own, most of the great art is anonymous, and therefore the idea of the artist as protagonist in his own art is absent. We know Giotto; we don't know the anonymous iconographer who painted the glorious fresco of the Anastasis on the walls of the Church of the Holy Savior in the Chora. Who wrote Beowulf? Because we don't know, does that mean he wasn't a great poet (heck, we don't even know if Homer was one poet or several). And how many other Beowulfs have we lost over the centuries, which now cause us to think of the Anglo-Saxon period as artistically impoverished?
In every age, in every culture, there is artistic greatness because man is made in the image of God and has an innate need to create in imitation of the one who made man. That creative impulse may take many different forms, and in many cases, it may be perverted so that its product is ugly and not worthy of God. But there will always be some that transcend human limits and reflect the divine.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 12, 2007 11:48:46 AM
"Does the fact that we have no Greek poetry before Homer mean that there was no Greek poetry? Were there no bards who composed the epics that were the raw material for the Illiad?"
No, it means there was no GREAT Greek poetry before " 'Omer smote 'is bloomin' lyre."
Greatness requires more than just talent or even applied talent which results in fine work; "there is a tide in the affairs of men, which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune"; and to live your life in the "low tide" of an art form might mean you'll never be more than a fine craftsman in your field, I suspect. Like a Robert E. Lee or George Patton in an age of peace (were such a thing possible...); perhaps a much happier life, just no greatness.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 12, 2007 11:55:16 AM
>>>No, it means there was no GREAT Greek poetry before " 'Omer smote 'is bloomin' lyre."<<<
It really means there was no great Greek poetry OF WHICH WE ARE AWARE. Which is something like, "If a bard recites a poem in the forest and nobody hears him sing, does he still make a song"?
Homer didn't make up his poems in a vacuum. He had raw materials. He was an oral poet, a bard--his luck was to come along at the very moment when some anonymous Greek guy was stealing the alphabet from the Phoenicians, so that his poem could be written down. He was luckier still that he was the Tom Clancy of his day, so that everybody wanted a copy of his stuff, which ensured that enough copies survived that we could get one. I believe the earliest extant copy of the complete Illiad dates to the 9th century AD. If that copy had disappeared, perhaps we would know Homer only from fragments and epitomes (the Cliff Notes of the Ancient World), and wonder what all the fuss was about.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 12, 2007 12:02:27 PM
I must concur with James' comments and strongly disagree with Nick's on absolute music. Edward Hanslick, the preeminent 19th-century music critic, often occasioned controversy by insisting that absolute music – that is, music without text or non-musical associations – is the purest form of music. Most musicians would distance ourselves from this position, but we still wish to affirm that music, like the visual arts, can be appreciated and judged on its own merits. Even I, who have spent a great deal of time studying songs and programmatic music, often squirm when I hear people evaluating music based on its associated text, rather than its intrinsic qualities.
Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 12, 2007 12:04:31 PM
Whoa! I'm not saying music can't be enjoyed without having context. I'm saying that it doesn't really have moral quality without context. I can say for example that I don't like an electric guitar rock solo, I just can't say its evil.
Posted by: Nick | Jul 12, 2007 12:15:32 PM
>>>I'm saying that it doesn't really have moral quality without context. I can say for example that I don't like an electric guitar rock solo, I just can't say its evil.<<<
Assuming that music can work directly upon the human emotions, perhaps even at a subconscious level, does it really need a text or a context to have a moral dimension?





