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July 09, 2007

Cultural Noise

     I'm a mathematician by hobby, and that means that I'll often lie awake in the morning pestered by numbers, especially when they don't seem to add up.  Here is something I've been puzzling about for years.  Back in the Renaissance, the population of Europe was a small fraction of what it is now, and that's not even counting the "European" cultures in the US, Canada, Australia, Brazil, and elsewhere.  Now the Renaissance saw perhaps the greatest flowering of artistic genius in the history of the world -- and I am not somebody who despises the art of the Middle Ages, as the Renaissance artists themselves did (hence "Gothic," initially an insult, meaning "fit for barbarians").  So why do we not enjoy ten times that flowering right now?  If Renaissance Italy produced a single Michelangelo, why do we not produce ten?  Not to mention ten Raphaels, ten Leonardos, ten Titians, ten Mantegnas, ten Caravaggios (!), and literally thousands of those fine second and third rank artists that every little village could boast?

     One answer is that the geniuses of our day are doing other things, like inventing computer programs such as the one I'm using now to write this.  That will cut down severely the "pool" of possible artists, but still -- if it cuts down the pool by a factor of 20, we could still expect, if not a Michelangelo and a Raphael, at least one or the other.  But we don't have either one.  Maybe that's because, even in the arts, the artists are pursuing something else, such as film?  Possibly; but as much as I like John Ford and Howard Hawkes, I'm leery of granting them the status of Titian, not to mention Shakespeare, Cervantes, Spenser, Tasso, or the other giants in literature of that age.

     Another possibility is that the cultural requirements to produce a Michelangelo are now lacking.  That is, at any one time there are probably many men walking around who could be a Michelangelo, but who will never be one, because the opportunity isn't there -- and by that I mean much more than that the fellow is a poor farmer boy, a "mute inglorious Milton."  I mean that to be a Michelangelo, you have to stand upon the gigantic shoulders of a culture that will grant you a sublime vision of all the created world and all of human history, governed by the Providential hand of God.  Without a vision like that, you do not get the very greatest art; and no such vision can be produced privately.  The Taj Mahal does not spring from private inspiration.  Tolkien could only write The Lord of the Rings because he enjoyed such a vision, provided him by his faith and by his being steeped in the heroic literature of the middle ages.

     I still suspect that that's not a sufficient explanation.  There must be a thousand factors less grand than that.  Michelangelo had the advantage of the old apprentice system, surviving in the Renaissance studios, where boys of various ages would be supervised by the master and his immediate successors and would be taught how to mix colors, how to paint a bit of an angel in an inconspicuous place, how to draw up a cartoon, how to nail together the scaffolding, and so forth.  (As an aside: I know that the studios were all male; that they produced Michelangelo, not to mention the hundreds of others, any one of whom, if he were alive now, might well be among the greatest living artists alive in the world, is their own justification.)  That sort of place no longer exists; it's been replaced by the school, that retarder of genius.

     Still hardly enough.  I'm also wondering to what extent the very ease with which our works are made public produces so much cultural noise as to block the work of thought.  The medieval theologians read one another's works and commented upon them, but the communication was necessarily slow, and that meant that only a few people, practically speaking, could comment, and they would comment only after much deliberation.  In other words, you had to have quite a few theologians writing and teaching and thinking all through Europe to produce a Thomas Aquinas; but if you had more, or if they were able to communicate with one another instantly, or if they were all encouraged to publish right away, you never would have produced a Thomas Aquinas.  The waves would have interfered with one another.  Most of the time the mind would be distracted or diverted by noise, by the relatively insignificant, by responding to something that should have been settled for good a long time before, so that the argument could move on.  If something like this cultural static is true, then that would explain the numbers -- rather, it would imply that, after a certain point, even in pretty decent cultural conditions, the more artists, philosophers, theologians, and writers of literature you have, the less likely it will be that any of them can fight their way above the static and rise to the level of Michelangelo, Plato, Thomas, or Milton.  (The hard sciences proceed in a different manner; I won't venture to say how much or how little this phenomenon applies to physics or biology.)

     The spur for these puzzlings, this weekend: snooping through the ubiquitous Glory and Praise hymnal, a work which verifies the rule that no matter how bad you think things are, they're really much worse.  It's not just that the songs are, most of them, unsingable by a congregation (for reasons that I can enumerate in another posting), and plagued with banal lyrics or awful poetry, cloying sentiments, ditzy theology, and bad grammar.  It's that none of the many editors seemed even to notice the fact.  They think they are in the middle of a Renaissance.  How is this possible, unless the whole idea of greatness or even pretty-darn-good-ness in art has suffered a complete collapse, under the burden of noise, noise, noise?

     Back in the nineteenth century there was a staggeringly bad poet named William McGonagall, who gave up the plough to regale his audiences with pious works on temperance and straight living.  Google on his name (my "link" function is not working today, for some reason), but don't drink while you're doing it, unless you like to aspirate your beer.  The poetry in Glory and Praise -- unless it is a direct citation of Scripture -- is better than McGonagall, but not by a whole lot, and is not nearly as good as the lyrics of the sometimes too-sweet American, Fanny Crosby, who wrote one hymn I do like a great deal ("Jesus, Keep Me Near the Cross").  The difference is that everybody in Victorian England at least knew that their fellow was a well-intended and ignorant plowman.  But they didn't have quite the level of noise we suffer now.

Posted by Anthony Esolen at 11:21 AM | Permalink

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» Where Have All the Artists Gone? from Thinking Christian
Yesterday Anthony Esolen was wondering where the artists are.... T. M. Moore also asked a similar question this week. [Read More]

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Comments

Here, for the lazy, is the best site I've found for McGonagall. I've signed up to receive a "poetic gem" by email every Sunday.

Not to bust Dr. Esolen's chops, but he was actually a weaver, not a ploughman.

A sample verse for the even lazier:

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay!
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember'd for a very long time.

Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 9, 2007 11:38:01 AM

>>>The spur for these puzzlings, this weekend: snooping through the ubiquitous Glory and Praise hymnal, a work which verifies the rule that no matter how bad you think things are, they're really much worse. <<<

As I have found out to my dismay with the promulgation of the new Ruthenian liturgy. Apparently, when the Intereparchial Liturgical Commission read Chesterton's observation that "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly", they took it as imperative.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jul 9, 2007 11:47:22 AM

Great question! This is one of the biggest questions of our day.

Smithsonian had an article on the guildsmen who restored the Statue of Liberty.

In the Middle Ages (and Renaissance) the arts were communal in a way that is unseen in our culture except at pharmaceutical companies. Thus, Bernini had apprentices that did work at his direction. Thomas Aquinas was a teacher who lived in a religious community which provided not only food, shelter, and protection but also clerks to take dictation.

A professor told me of a nun in his grad school. The assignment was to generate a bibliography of some work. Most students chose obscure works that had few printings, but this nun chose a popular, pious work. Her whole convent was working to track down all of the printings of the work.

Posted by: Fred | Jul 9, 2007 11:49:23 AM

I'm not at all convinced that there aren't many artists producing works as great as those of Michelangelo and Cervantes, although I still reserve a special pedestal for Shakespeare, Spenser, and Donne. I do think that today's noise, communicated within and across many cultures, can make it difficult to focus on just a handful of "great" artists. I'd also support the truism that it's difficult to discern greatness in one's midst: witness again the varying reputations of Shakespeare, Spenser, and Donne, the last of whom was nearly forgotten until Helen Gardner, T. S. Eliot, and others revived interest in him in the early 20th century.

Our hymnals actually support this idea: though we have fortunately forgotten and gradually left behind us many of the bad hymns of the 18th century, we are still hanging onto many 19th-century flops, and we've culled hardly any of the last century's musical mishaps from our hymnals. With time, we will hopefully excise "Jesus Is the Man for Me" and other musical abominations.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 9, 2007 12:01:24 PM

Ethan, I prefer this stanza from today's McGonagall gem:

And I hope heaven will be
Mr James Scrymgeour's reward;
For his struggles on behalf of the poor
Are really vexatious and hard.

Posted by: Occasus | Jul 9, 2007 12:14:16 PM

The explanation is clear. To quote the famous parting speech by Orson Welles in The Third Man, the best movie ever made:

"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- they produced Michaelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce...? The cuckoo clock."

Posted by: maria horvath | Jul 9, 2007 1:07:26 PM

>>"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- they produced Michaelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce...? The cuckoo clock."<<

So all the great artists are being slaughtered in the Sudan?

Posted by: Michael | Jul 9, 2007 1:14:34 PM

Michael, that's an example of irony.

Posted by: maria horvath | Jul 9, 2007 1:54:31 PM

The prospect of ten Caravaggios makes me shiver with horrified glee. This post was worth it for that alone (or would be, if it weren't also worth it for other reasons).

Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 9, 2007 2:07:17 PM

The most creative artists today are in the commercial art fields. Artists have usually followed the money, despite what they say.

Posted by: PAUL KURITZ | Jul 9, 2007 5:13:35 PM

>>The prospect of ten Caravaggios makes me shiver with horrified glee. This post was worth it for that alone (or would be, if it weren't also worth it for other reasons).<<

The real question is, how long would it take for them to be either gunned down or locked up for murdering pimps?

Maybe viz. Wells, we just live in too stable a time. Somewhere between anarchy and affluenza lies the land of adventure from which comes great art.

Or, alternatively, we've just forgotten what good art is and why one might care about it. O tempora! O mores!

Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 9, 2007 5:32:18 PM

Indeed. For example the fellow who invited the iPod interface. Industrial design is where such artists hide. Since they usually hide behind brand names you'll never hear of them though.

Posted by: Nick | Jul 9, 2007 5:39:52 PM

I may have mentioned this before; if so, forgive me. I had a deliciously fun, subversive moment a few years back when I read McGonagall's 'Silvery Tay' poem at an open stage sponsored by a very left-wing, barky poetry group here in Pittsburgh. Not only was that in itself a huge grin (reading doggerel to a bunch of other doggerel-producers who took theirs SO seriously) but in my introduction to McGonagall's poem, I stated that he was very widely considered the worst poet of all time, "at least until Maya Angelou came along," but that frankly, I didn't think he was so bad. In fact, I said, if they listened closely they might hear some poetic effects that would remind them somewhat of Bruce Cockburn.

They knew they were being skewered, because if looks from liberals could kill.....

Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 9, 2007 6:36:58 PM

I don't know.

Today, you might say the real talent is being snapped up by advertisers and computer programmers.

But in the 15th century, a lot more of that talent was dying in mud-hole peasant villages without any shot at even being able to read.

I don't think it's a problem of supply...

Posted by: Seth R. | Jul 9, 2007 6:44:57 PM

>>The real question is, how long would it take for them to be either gunned down or locked up for murdering pimps?<<

So you're saying he'd have a future in the world of "urban" art, perhaps? Tagging, ryhme-busting and whatnot? I could see it. Those warehouses downtown are just crying out for some spraypaint chiaroscuro, and I'd imagine the world would weep at the unveiling of his "Martyrdom of Tupac." Whether they would be tears of thanksgiving or disgust, though, I couldn't say.

Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 10, 2007 2:34:23 AM

And by "he," of course, I mean "they." "Ten Caravaggios" is as yet an appalling novelty, and is still ungainly to the mind.

Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 10, 2007 2:36:08 AM

>>So you're saying he'd have a future in the world of "urban" art, perhaps?<<

I'm just saying that if he tried living his 17th century lifestyle nowadays, he would spend a lot of time in the hoosegow, and the rest in the V.D. clinic. Maybe we could find a better example than old Caravaggio.

Still, I'd love to see Grafiti artists develop some chiaroscuro. Also, I would hope that he'd paint something besides just stylized iterations of "MMdC".

Posted by: Ethan Cordray | Jul 10, 2007 8:19:54 AM

With all due respect to Katherine, I think the history of literature and art shows rather that the production of works of genius is highly erratic. In some endeavors (drama, sculpture), almost nothing of any real value is produced for many centuries ... I don't believe for a moment that we have any authors running about unnoticed who can rival Shakespeare, for a few simple reasons:

1. Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante.
2. The cultural support is not there (as I said in the post).
3. The cultural acid IS there.
4. The early twentieth century is long gone, and it produced no Shakespeare.
5. There is not a single poet in English since Browning who can hold a candle to Spenser or Milton, let alone Shakespeare.
6. There is not a single religious lyricist in English since Hopkins who can hold a candle to Herbert.
7. There is no reason to suppose that the situation right now is any better than it was in the mid-20th century or late 20th century.
8. Other European literatures are also in the tank, though because they haven't as thoroughly been taken over by the academy, they haven't suffered nearly as much as English has.
9. As for painting, well -- name your favorite painter of the 20th century who can be mentioned in the same breath with the first rank of Renaissance artists. Second rank, possibly: Sargent? Hopper? Klee? that charlatan Picasso? Wyeth? Or name a single thing that any of the modern painters achieved that was not already achieved by the Baroque painters, such as Rembrandt, the late Titian, Tintoretto, etc.
10. Take a good look at a mid-size city newspaper from 1930 and compare it to what we have now. The popular culture has also tanked.
11. It is not true that great artists always or even very often have to wait till people appreciate their greatness. A list of people from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance who everybody knew were great:
Dante
Petrarch
Giotto
Masaccio
Donatello
Raphael
Michelangelo
Leonardo
Erasmus
Spenser
Sidney
Shakespeare (um, you don't otherwise get invited all the time to perform before the King)
Milton
Jonson
Ariosto
Tasso
Bernini
Bramante
Correggio
Holbein
Rubens
Titian
Tintoretto
Palestrina
Josquin
Monteverdi

Every once in a while you find somebody who has to wait for the fame -- often it's an ill personality that gets in the way:

Rembrandt
Caravaggio
Donne
Herbert
Marvell

Certainly by the time Milton was young, everybody knew how great Shakespeare was -- that was a couple of decades after the bard's death. Boccaccio himself became the first professor of Dante, and his life overlaps that of the Florentine poet....

Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 10, 2007 5:42:16 PM

With all due respect to Katherine, I think the history of literature and art shows rather that the production of works of genius is highly erratic. In some endeavors (drama, sculpture), almost nothing of any real value is produced for many centuries ... I don't believe for a moment that we have any authors running about unnoticed who can rival Shakespeare, for a few simple reasons:

1. Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante.
2. The cultural support is not there (as I said in the post).
3. The cultural acid IS there.
4. The early twentieth century is long gone, and it produced no Shakespeare.
5. There is not a single poet in English since Browning who can hold a candle to Spenser or Milton, let alone Shakespeare.
6. There is not a single religious lyricist in English since Hopkins who can hold a candle to Herbert.
7. There is no reason to suppose that the situation right now is any better than it was in the mid-20th century or late 20th century.
8. Other European literatures are also in the tank, though because they haven't as thoroughly been taken over by the academy, they haven't suffered nearly as much as English has.
9. As for painting, well -- name your favorite painter of the 20th century who can be mentioned in the same breath with the first rank of Renaissance artists. Second rank, possibly: Sargent? Hopper? Klee? that charlatan Picasso? Wyeth? Or name a single thing that any of the modern painters achieved that was not already achieved by the Baroque painters, such as Rembrandt, the late Titian, Tintoretto, etc.
10. Take a good look at a mid-size city newspaper from 1930 and compare it to what we have now. The popular culture has also tanked.
11. It is not true that great artists always or even very often have to wait till people appreciate their greatness. A list of people from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance who everybody knew were great:
Dante
Petrarch
Giotto
Masaccio
Donatello
Raphael
Michelangelo
Leonardo
Erasmus
Spenser
Sidney
Shakespeare (um, you don't otherwise get invited all the time to perform before the King)
Milton
Jonson
Ariosto
Tasso
Bernini
Bramante
Correggio
Holbein
Rubens
Titian
Tintoretto
Palestrina
Josquin
Monteverdi

Every once in a while you find somebody who has to wait for the fame -- often it's an ill personality that gets in the way:

Rembrandt
Caravaggio
Donne
Herbert
Marvell

Certainly by the time Milton was young, everybody knew how great Shakespeare was -- that was a couple of decades after the bard's death. Boccaccio himself became the first professor of Dante, and his life overlaps that of the Florentine poet....

Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jul 10, 2007 5:44:02 PM

"Or name a single thing that any of the modern painters achieved that was not already achieved by the Baroque painters, such as Rembrandt, the late Titian, Tintoretto, etc."

John Singer Sargent's Triumph of Religion, "second-rank" though Sargent may be.

I think that production - and only that production in the entire century (that I know of) - rivals the majesty of the Renaissance and Baroque masters. It doesn't surpass it, and maybe it doesn't even equal it, but, by thunder, it makes a damned spirited attempt. I've often wondered about Nikolai Roerich, too, but he'd certainly be in that "second rank," if anywhere.

I also wanted to suggest Gustave Dore, John Martin or Nikolai Gay, but they're all too early.

Posted by: Nick Milne | Jul 10, 2007 6:59:05 PM

Craft traditions produce art traditions (they are necessary but not sufficient, of course.) Consider violin making. All the best violin makers the world has ever seen lived in a small, unimportant town in northern Italy. Stradivari aside, they all belonged to one of two families, and they mostly worked alongside one another in the same shops.

Suzi Gablik pointed out that American universities graduate as many MFAs every five years as there were people in 15th-c Florence. However, these MFAs are not craftsmen. They are angling for a spot in the world semi-intellectual twilight in which Julian Schnabel and Jasper Johns spookily smash plates on American flags. You can been an AHHtist in this world without any craftsmanlike abilities at all - consider Damien Hirst or Yoko Ono.

Posted by: cantemir | Jul 10, 2007 9:31:55 PM

What is the source of artistic genius? From accounts I have read about authors creating characters and story lines for their books it seems to me that God (acknowledged or not) must be involved as the source of creative inspiration.

If we do not see artists and authors today that rise to the caliber of the past, is our cultural noise interfering with God's blessing such that we are no longer capable of recognising creative insipration or is God sending us a message about the priorities of our culture.

Posted by: William Wilcox | Jul 11, 2007 8:55:29 AM

Tony, I think a number of your judgments, particularly regarding the 20th century, rely on taste. It's difficult to argue with taste, and I really don't wish to. But here are my responses to a few of the statements in your last post.

1. Your taste seems to run to length and epic magnitude. There are some Chinese and Korean poets who wrote miniaturist poems of exquisite mastery, which retain much of their beauty in translation. I'm not an expert on Asian poetry, though, so I won't go into great detail.

4. The early twentieth century didn't produce a Shakespeare, but it did come up with T. S. Eliot, W. H. Auden, and William Faulkner - and that's just among the Anglophone writers. Don't forget Chinua Achebe in the latter half of the century.

5. In my estimation, Shakespeare's non-dramatic verse is often overrated, though I think his plays are without equal. I'd nominate some of the shorter poems of Southwell, Donne, Herbert, Hopkins, Brooks, Levertov, and Wilbur - to name just a few - as works that more than vie with the sonnets, let alone Venus and Adonis or The Rape of Lucrece.

6. My admiration of Herbert and Hopkins approaches idolatry, but I believe that Richard Wilbur and Czeslaw Milosz have written religious lyrics of comparable weight and beauty.

7.-8. These statements are very broad, but I think there is ample reason to hope for our contemporary literatures. Toni Morrison's Beloved is a magnificent work, scarcely twenty years old; and Orhan Pamuk, Wilbur, and Achebe are with us yet.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 11:59:53 AM

Has no one mentioned Tolkien yet, as a high-quality 20th century writer?

Posted by: Peter Gardner | Jul 11, 2007 12:14:14 PM

Tolkien's works are high-quality, yes, but even now they're not considered "mainstream," like the other works that have been mentioned so far. I'm okay with that: I prefer to hob-nob with the cult followers who still speak Sindarin and read runes, etc.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 12:19:36 PM

What we have here is Professor Esolen banging the table louder and louder that his preferences in art and literature are the ones that should rule the roost, and because the world isn't honoring these, the world is sinking ever deeper.

Maybe this comes from lording it over undergrades too long. "Taste" and "judgment" in art all too often boil down to trying to separate oneself from the masses. Ah, look how sophsticated I am; run along now, would you, while I recite Latin witticisms to myself and rattle off lists of paintings.

There's lots of dreck today. And there's always been dreck. We only remember the good stuff or what caught on and was printed over and over again and then taught over and over.

There's more dreck these days, surprise, because there are more and more people producing literature and art. And there are more and more people who have the time and money to produce works of art. To Professor Esolen's chagrin, apparently, they're not all European Catholic or Anglican males.

There is so much good poetry, fiction and art being produced today that no one could read and reflect upon it all. That's really the trouble Esolen has: the world has ceased to be a closed universe. It's moving too fast, there's too much noise. I guess if we could get the peasants back in the fields where they belong, women in the nursery, why, things would be grand in the art world.

"1. Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante."

Really? Any number of 20th century novelists can rival these three. Would any of these three be as famous today if they hadn't been put on a pedastal for centuries?

"2. The cultural support is not there."

If you mean the world isn't a closed metanarrative, where if you don't publically buy into that narrative there are ways of dealing with you, then, yes, the cultural support isn't there.

But, in most ways, the cultural support is richer. More books are bought and sold today than ever before, and not all of them are dreck, though perhaps they don't meet the professor's approval. And the soil for art is richer: the intersection of cultures, religions and science.

"3. The cultural acid IS there."

Amen brother. Let the acid burn! Does Professor Esolen think that the classical-Christian synthesis of late medieval-Renaissance Europe would somehow last? Or that it should have lasted? Christianity as an incarnational religion can interact with any culture. I mean, really, how many classical allusions must one know to be educated or have good taste. And packing works with classical allusions can be gamesmanship as much as anything else.

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 12:30:49 PM

"'"Nobody can rival Shakespeare. Maybe Homer, maybe Dante."

Really? Any number of 20th century novelists can rival these three.' "

Ok, here's a number -- five. Name five 20th century novelists who can rival Tony's big three. And if you mention Mailer, Updike, or Irving, I suggest that you be banned from this site immediately as having nothing of substance to say.

Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 12:36:57 PM

Rob,

Michael Cunningham (of The Hours fame), Paul Auster, Yukio Mishima, Chuck Palahniuk, Aldous Huxley.

The last two are obsessed with polarizing dystopia and personal mental issues, but that has nothing to do with whether they "rival" the so-called big three or not in regards to storytelling and linguistic command. The first two are similarly concerned with realism and the interactions between people, but Cunningham in particular is brilliant with this. Mishima isn't Anglophone, that's for sure, but he was brilliant. The Sound of Waves and The Sea of Fertility tetralogy belong on every bibliophile's shelf of 20th century literature.

Not to mention T. S. Eliot for his epic poetry in regards to Dante and Homer. As far as playwrights go, it's not fair primarily because no one talks in Elizabethan English anymore, and we have no reason to expect a playwright to use metered verse in dialogue. It's just not the fashion. It's a matter of taste.

Or John Steinbeck.

Or Dai Sijie.

Or, God forbid, Neal Stephenson (though he's a niche author).

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:06:31 PM

Rob,

What was my comment on the other thread about self-righteousness, would-be totaltiarns that you objected to? Hmm. And now you want folks banned if they don't agree with you.

Here's a deal. I'll raise you five; here are 10 novelists who are on the level of Homer, Shakespeare and Dante. They are not in a particular order:

1. Virginia Wolf. (Beautiful, lyrical, insightful; her passages can be as golden as anything in Shakespeare.)
2. Phillip K. Dick (For a self-professed Gnostic, his work grapples with what's already here and is coming.)
3. Shusaku Endo (The powerful interaction of Japan and Christianity; human suffering)
4. Larry McMurtry (an American Homer-Dante who tried to deconstruct the Illiad of the West and simply couldn't; he's too honest, his prose and storytelling (and the story itself) too powerful.
5. Robert A. Heinlein (Don't put your nose up; Heinlein's Starship Troopers is a profound meditation on violence and its role. And, like Shakespeare, he knows how to tell a story.)
6. Saul Bellow. (Simply great stuff.)
7. Neal Stephenson (Talk about epic; Stephenson is your man for today.)
8. V.S. Naipaul (The coming of modernity is hard, painful even, but worthwhile.)
9. Salman Rushdie (The power of the pen.)
10. Orson Scott Card (The Ender's Series is epic in scope and profoundly philosophical without losing sight of the story.)
11. Chiuna Achebe (grappling with colonialism in Africa).
12. John Updkie -- if only to get banned :)

There are more.

Want to try poets next?

Cheers,
Sam.

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 1:09:08 PM

"As far as playwrights go, it's not fair primarily because no one talks in Elizabethan English anymore, and we have no reason to expect a playwright to use metered verse in dialogue."

I think it's fair to compare various forms of English, not to mention different languages. And don't forget that Shakespeare's plays contain large chunks of prose.

Moreover, great as Shakespeare is, much of his playwriting leaves plenty of room for improvement. Take, for example, at least 50% of The Taming of the Shrew; nearly all of Pericles, Troilus and Cressida, and Titus Andronicus; and large chunks of the early comedies. As much as I love The Comedy of Errors - the first comedy with a promise, so to speak - I have to admit that its claims to "greatness" are pretty scanty. Stoppard's Arcadia easily matches it, though his oeuvre isn't as nearly fine as Shakespeare's, taken in sum.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:15:05 PM

Sam,

I obviously side with you on novelists...but I'm not sure we have a strong case for 20th century poetry, if only because it's not comparable at all to renaissance poetry. It rejects forms (with the exception of Langston Hughes, who would appear on the list without question) and therefore, with use of free verse, can't really be compared to a sonnet. You can compare thematic content alone, not poetry as a genre--rhyme, meter, length, scheme...it just doesn't fit.

That said, just because they use free verse doesn't mean their bad poets. It just means they use free verse.

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:15:26 PM

Katherine,

Finally someone else who thinks half of The Taming of the Shrew was lackluster, if not downright poor. That play is the most overrated piece I have ever read (next to Laura Esquivel's Like Water for Chocolate, what a horrible novel). But it has Shakespeare's stamp on it...

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:17:16 PM

True. And I'll put The Invention of Love's Housman up against Troilus and Cressida's Patroclus, any day of the week.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:19:15 PM

Really though, Michael, good as they may be, do you think that any of these will have 500-year staying power? Of the thousands of books published since the beginning of the 20th century, how many are still being read even 50 years later, let alone 500?

Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 1:23:18 PM

Yikes!

Robert Heinlein was tremendous, a companion of many a daydream of my adolescence and a few worthwhile thoughts, too. But he was no Dante - maybe a Benito Cellini.

I love "Ender's Game" and "Starship Troopers", and there are nutritious nuggets in both, but I don't think comparing them with the Western canon is at all justified. "I like them as much as, or more than, I like Homer, Dante, et al." is not equivalent to saying "They are as good as", and the chances that anyone will read Card or Heinlein in two hundred years are exceptionally low - hardly anyone reads Jules Verne anymore, after all.

As for McMurtry, "who tried to deconstruct the Illiad of the West and simply couldn't...", well, even if that made any sense it wouldn't raise the status of a readable, literary craftsman who churns out potboilers quite compatible with the tastes of his particular time. Again, "I enjoyed a book very much" is quite a different statement from, "that's a Great Book".

Otherwise-forgettable authors who have been artifically put on pedestals abound in this age of multicultural kowtowing...while men like Shakespeare, however you might think they got onto their pedestals in the first place, have resisted centuries' worth of competitors' attempts to supplant them on it.

Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 11, 2007 1:25:46 PM

I think when you filter the dreck, what's left is what's being read 500 years later. Ever heard of John Fletcher and Ben Jonson? Yeah, but you're not reading them in high school. Ever heard of Clive Cussler? Yeah, but they're not reading him in grad schools, whereas Stephenson had a course dedicated to him at Southeast Missouri (e.g. the school that houses the largest Faulkner library) "Cyberpunk Fiction as a Post-Modern Genre."

I'm not sure if Stephenson or Cunningham or Auster will survive 'til 2500 (heck, I don't know if the world will survive 'til 2500), but doesn't that say more about the culture than the writers? I am convinced that someday, there will be books from our era by someone lauded as "masterpieces."

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:31:44 PM

Oh, and on playwrights:

The play has been supplanted as a performance medium by movies. Now, thank God The Hulk won't be around in 500 years, but Citizen Kane, the Star Wars saga (just to name two of dozens) should definitely make it a few more centuries.

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:39:47 PM

"I am convinced that someday, there will be books from our era by someone lauded as 'masterpieces.' "

Yes. And Stephenson's very good. However, being lauded at a current university, particularly in a course with "Post-Modern" anywhere in its title, is more embarassing than indicative of quality...better to say he may endure DESPITE academic interest, unless you think "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" will be the most enduring work from our century...

Posted by: Joe Long | Jul 11, 2007 1:41:53 PM

Joe, I echo your 'Yikes!' with a 'double yikes!' and agree wholeheartedly with your post.

Sam -- the crack about being banned was a joke, with reference to your 'would-be totalitarian' line on the other post. No comments on your list, other than my agreement with Joe. Are you going to tell us next that Radiohead and Pearl Jam are as good as Beethoven and Bach?


Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 1:43:31 PM

'Twasn't my point, Joe. And I think you knew that. Being lauded at a university is indicative of something greater than pulp fiction.

And Buffy? The series or the movie? Because the series was bloody brilliant.

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:43:49 PM

>>Are you going to tell us next that Radiohead and Pearl Jam are as good as Beethoven and Bach?<<

Completely different musical genres. That's like saying "let's compare a haiku witha novel." But Shostakovich, a 20th century composer, might be...

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 1:45:52 PM

Radiohead and Pearl Jam would best be compared to the "Willow Song," the mid-sixteenth-century traditional English song that appears in modified form in Othello. It's challenging to compare popular musics, though, since most people - including scholars - know so little about early popular songs.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:55:00 PM

Although I'm not a Shosty fan, there are folks who would agree with you. That, however, wasn't my point to Sam. It's not a question of genre, but one of quality. In my opinion, comparing Virginia Woolf with Shakespeare is like comparing Pearl Jam with Bach. The latter both produce music, and the former both write, but's that about as far as the comparisons go.

Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 1:55:38 PM

As to Ben Jonson, I read him in high school - but should high school administrators, any more than poets, really be the unacknowledged legislators of the world?

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 1:57:34 PM

>>It's not a question of genre, but one of quality. In my opinion, comparing Virginia Woolf with Shakespeare is like comparing Pearl Jam with Bach. The latter both produce music, and the former both write, but's that about as far as the comparisons go.<<

But how do you compare absolute quality across genres? I mean, you hit with the Wolf v. Shakespeare--Wolf wrote novels, Shakespeare plays and poetry, and that's about as far as the comparisons go.

I mean, which is better, the Notre Dame or St. Peter's? One's a neo-Roman bascilica, the other a Gothic cathedral. They're both church buildings, and cathedrals in the absolute sense of bishops' seats, but they really are incomparable beyond that.

Now, I think you can say one genre is better than another, and thus provide a bias to say the best in one genre is better than another, but that only holds if it is accepted that one genre is better than another--if Elizabethan poetry is better than 20th century prose, then Shakespeare trumps Wolf. If not...eh.

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 2:03:26 PM

One could think of it this way, perhaps: This poem is a great poem; that novel is a mediocre novel; therefore, this poem is a greater work of art than that novel. Or this novelist is a great novelist; that poet is a mediocre poet; therefore, this novelist is a better writer than that poet.

Of course, an agreed-upon definition of what makes great literature would be helpful, too.

Posted by: Beth | Jul 11, 2007 2:17:19 PM

"One could think of it this way, perhaps: This poem is a great poem; that novel is a mediocre novel; therefore, this poem is a greater work of art than that novel. Or this novelist is a great novelist; that poet is a mediocre poet; therefore, this novelist is a better writer than that poet."

You beat me to it, but that's what I had in mind, Beth.

Posted by: Rob Grano | Jul 11, 2007 2:20:17 PM

Beth & Rob,

I don't think that holds precisely because it is much harder to write a competent sonnet than free verse. It is much more difficult to spend weeks, months, sometimes years on one novel due to the simple problem of length, let alone complexity, than it is to spend a passing 20 minutes on a poem.

I know. I do both as a hobby, and it took me a week to write one chapter and five minutes to write one poem. A mediocre novel may be a mediocre novel, but I've read many a mediocre play (The Taming of the Shrew, for example) that I thought were better than "great" books (Like Water for Chocolate, for example). That's why it's a question of taste, not of substance, in regards to cross-genre comparisons.

Posted by: Michael | Jul 11, 2007 2:25:41 PM

"if Elizabethan poetry is better than 20th century prose"

Oh, I'm tempted, very tempted. Unofficially, then, I say: If anything is better than 20th-century prose, it's 20th-century poetry, and if anything is better than 20th-century poetry, it's Elizabethan poetry and prose. (Read Bacon's essays and Tyndale's 1526 New Testament if you doubt me when it comes to prose.)

But this is my personal predilection, and I don't pretend that it should have any bearing on the question of absolute quality among writers.

Posted by: Katherine Philips | Jul 11, 2007 2:28:55 PM

Joe,

I'm not saying that since I like Heinlein, Stephenson, Card, etc., that is the reason why they are on par with Dante, Homer, and Shakespeare. I also happen to like Dante and Shakespeare and Homer. The epic poem still has practioners, and I'd say Frederick Turner is one par with any of the big names, but the epic poem is not nearly as "in" as the novel.

Thus, regrettably, Frederick Turner will not be remembered as well as he should in be, I fear. The novel, for this age, is the equivalent of epic and narrative poetry, and, in many cases, could be compared to plays as well.

A few comments:

I'd suggest that Heinlein is far more than an adolscent fixation, although he wrote some stuff better than others. I don't care for his weird sexual stuff.(Shakespeare also wrote some bombs as well.) Starship Troopers, in particular, will be read in 200, 400 or 500 years from now. It's not a shoot 'em up. It's profound and solidly written reflection on men training to kill, and the necessity of that training and killing, which is a subject not going to fade away anytime soon.

As for Card, his Ender's saga is a good example of the novel serving as an epic; he has the ability to capture of a vision of humanity and its ramifications is on the level of a Dante or Homer.

Larry McMurty a scribbler of potboilers? As you might put it, Yikes! There are ups and down in his work. So are there in Shakespeare. Is Titus Andronicus on the same level as Hamlet? I think not.

Founding a nation is great and terrible thing, as we can see in Virgil's Aeneid. That same theme runs through the best of McMurtry's work. And he's honest enough in his writing that his own politics can get overtaken by the sheer immensity and power of the tale he's telling. McMurty will last.

You write, "Otherwise-forgettable authors who have been artifically put on pedestals abound in this age of multicultural kowtowing...while men like Shakespeare, however you might think they got onto their pedestals in the first place, have resisted centuries' worth of competitors' attempts to supplant them on it."

But, Hemingway's boxing metaphors aside, that's really not how the canon works. If I say "Shakespeare," I'm not just referenceing an English playwright and his works. I'm referencing a whole constellation of meanings that have developed over years. I'm referencing to countless high school English teachers saying how good he is; parents who may not have read him but knew that well everyone said he was good and everyone can't be wrong; other authors quoting Shakespeare's characters, thus lending credence and giving themselves intellectual street cred; the odd ability of Shakespeare to be enlisted into everyone's camp -- he's gay! he's not gay! he's a capialist! he's not! he's an elitist! he's a democrat, etc. If this is repeated long enough, it sticks. Call it the Shakespeare meme, and it's not going away anytime soon. Nor should it.

But that doesn't mean other memes aren't going to be fashioned and aren't replicating as we write this.

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11, 2007 2:39:51 PM

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