Spring Into Action Fundraising Drive

Thanks to all our Touchstone and Salvo friends who responded so generously and helped us surpass our goal!
God bless you all.











WWW Mere Comments





« The State of the Evangelical Movement | Main | Gutting It Out »

October 09, 2007

It's a Bad Bad Bad Bad World

     Mr. Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, believes that the world is a bad job.  So bad is it, that people who still believe in an objective and ultimate Goodness must be brought to heel by the power of the state and by something called "education."  So ugly is it, that people who still believe in an objective and ultimate Beauty must recant.  Then, when the whole "unscientific" question of goodness or beauty is out of the way, all may indulge themselves in deeds that are neither good nor bad nor beautiful nor ugly.  And that would be a good and beautiful thing.

     Mr. Dawkins' principal reasons for believing that the world is a bad job can be expressed simply enough: animals eat other animals, and people die.  That these things are not news to peasant Christians seems not to occur to him.  If I live in Monday and have to die on Tuesday, that fact alone seems sufficient to pronounce the world bad.  One might as well ask whether, though I should have to die on Tuesday, my getting to live on Monday is not sufficient to pronounce the world good.  I rather like my Monday, and I suspect Mr. Dawkins likes his, too.  But people die: therefore it is absurd to hope in a God who promises a conquest of death.  He might as logically have argued, people live: therefore it is natural to hope in a God who promises life, and that in abundance.

     Such people as Mr. Dawkins pretend to be terribly sensitive to the bad -- but I wish they were more sensitive.  A man who gapes at pornography is not therefore sensitive to sex; he is probably well on his way to making himself insensible to it.  If Maureen O'Hara were to walk into his living room, in ordinary dress, such a man might hardly raise an eyebrow.  His pulse would keep on at its dead rate.  He would not notice her sex, speaking through the lilt in the voice, the slenderness of her arms, her teasing manners, her light step, her attention-commanding womanhood.  If Mr. Dawkins really believed that the world was a bad job, rather than just being angry with those who don't agree with him, he might eventually get around to wondering whether that badness included the part of the world known as Mr. Dawkins.  That is, he might conclude that he himself is a bad job.  Then he might do as Job did, and curse the world -- not God -- from his knees.  I'll take seriously someone who says the world is bad -- if he says it from that posture.

     The same kind of insensibility is to be found in Christopher Hitchens, who used to say that Mother Teresa was a selfish woman.  She only fed and cleaned and nursed the untouchables of Calcutta because it brought her pleasure to do so.  Now that it turns out that she suffered worse than her patients did, he says that she was brought to despair because she supposed that God might not exist.  Here Hitchens sets himself up as a skeptic, when really he is insensible to doubt.  It never occurs to him that Mother Teresa might have suffered, not because she feared that God might not exist, but because she was certain that Mr. Christopher Hitchens did.  I'm not being facetious here.  Hitchens is only playing at skepticism -- he draws a nice protective fence around himself.  If he were really a doubter, he might come round, as Chesterton says, to doubting himself.  He might have wondered whether his existence were the cause that someone else should doubt the existence of a benevolent God.  Had he done that, he might have understood a little bit about Mother Teresa.

     They remind me of my college days, when it was the fashion to hole up in a room with some buddies, listen to music to be miserable by, indulge in some depressive substance, and talk for hours on the rottenness of life.  For the refutation of which, the best remedy is not an argument but an open window, a kick, and a laugh.

Posted by Anthony Esolen at 01:39 PM | Permalink

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d8341c5ee953ef00e54f085ecf8834

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference It's a Bad Bad Bad Bad World:

Comments

Fantastic, Dr. Esolen. I note that atheists often employ the problem of evil or suffering to great rhetorical effect, and yet the only solution they have in their philosophy is to deny the problem. The reason Mr. Dawkins does not consider such a thing is that he doesn't actually believe in badness.

By the way, I had an interesting interview the other day by an atheist on the book of Job. It was a fascinating conversation that some here may enjoy.

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Oct 9, 2007 2:03:18 PM

"So ugly is it, that people who still believe in an objective and ultimate Beauty must recant. Then, when the whole "unscientific" question of goodness or beauty is out of the way, all may indulge themselves in deeds that are neither good nor bad nor beautiful nor ugly. And that would be a good and beautiful thing."

Hmmm...perhaps we could call that "Ironies of (Un)Faith"?

Posted by: Bill R | Oct 9, 2007 2:26:47 PM

C.S. Lewis has a good bit on the question, How can it be possible for me to know that the world is bad? If I know that it is, aren't I judging it against some standard of good? If the badness is real, then the standard of good cannot be illusory. So from whence is this good?

From another angle, I've suspected that those who argue for atheism from evil are more likely *not* to have ever touched deep suffering themselves. Perhaps blind men do not really know the nature of bad color. If I'm right, I might answer such arguers, But go try some Godly suffering for yourselves, and then you just might see the holiness in it.

Posted by: Clifford Simon | Oct 10, 2007 1:20:35 AM

"If Mr. Dawkins really believed that the world was a bad job, rather than just being angry with those who don't agree with him, he might eventually get around to wondering whether that badness included the part of the world known as Mr. Dawkins."

Brilliant, Dr. E, simply brilliant!

Kamilla

Posted by: Kamilla | Oct 10, 2007 2:43:38 AM

This is interesting--it's sort of a monopolar version of gnosticism. Gnosticism held to a duality of matter and spirit, in which the former was base and corrupt, the product of an evil demiurge, while the latter was pure and good, the product of the Christ of the New Testament, who had nothing to do with Yahweh Sabaoth, the "demiurge" of gnostic cosmology.

Dawkins and his ilk accept on half of this formulation--that matter is base and evil, albeit they leave out the demiurge, or rather, rename him "random events", while omitting the possibility of purely spiritual existence. This strikes me as being a formula for pure nihilism on the one hand, or absolute indifference on the other. Either way, it projects life as pointless drudgery, which may be one reason why Dawkins is having a hard time selling his vision of the universe.

Christians, on the other hand, believe in a universe of seen and unseen things, of man as a psychosomatic being who consists of a fully integrated body, soul and spirit, and in a God who is the creator of all things, who made the material universe and "saw that it was good". We recognize the evils of the world as a consequence of our own sinfulness, but also recognize that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world in the form of a man to sanctify not only human nature, but all matter so that the world created by the Father might eventually be restored to its original condition. Through Christ, we have been liberated from sin and death, and that message, I think, resonates a lot more with people than the existential desert offered by Richard Dawkins.

Who, as one might have expected, has already been shamelessly lampooned by South Park:

http://www.southparkstuff.com/season_10/episode_1012/epi1012script/

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 10, 2007 5:43:49 AM

Um, Richard Dawkins is not having a hard time selling anything. He is a New York Times best seller--so is Hitchens. There are plenty of other measures, I am sure, which indicate that they are peddling their world view with plenty of success, although I am confident it will only be short-term gain.

This doesn't detract from how good this post is, but we have to be sure we have our facts right and that we are generally aware of the current popularity of these writers.

Posted by: jason | Oct 10, 2007 10:27:48 AM

Um, Richard Dawkins is not having a hard time selling anything. He is a New York Times best seller--so is Hitchens. There are plenty of other measures, I am sure, which indicate that they are peddling their world view with plenty of success, although I am confident it will only be short-term gain.

This doesn't detract from how good this post is, but we have to be sure we have our facts right and that we are generally aware of the current popularity of these writers.

Posted by: jason | Oct 10, 2007 10:27:57 AM

Another excellent and thought-provoking post, Dr. Esolen.

I would like to follow up on your example of the pornography-addled man who remains unmoved by the luminous beauty of Maureen O'Hara.

Why are all these depressing Jeremiads--the books written by Hitchens and Dawkins are just two among many--why are they all so dreadfully popular? I tried reading the Hitchens screed but had to put it down, it was just too depressing. When the choice is between beauty and ugliness, between hope and despair, between community and loneliness, why are so many choosing to immerse themselves in this bleak, dark and dank world of godlessness?

It's tempting to see this a-theism as just another manifestation of religious faith. The panic, for example, about the upcoming world-wide flood caused by global warming may just be a secular and nihilistic version of Noah and the time his family and animals spent on the Ark.

I can think of many psychological reasons why these men are writing their books. But what impels the many readers of these books to imagine rejecting the embrace of beauty?

Posted by: maria horvath | Oct 10, 2007 11:24:14 AM

"Um, Richard Dawkins is not having a hard time selling anything. He is a New York Times best seller--so is Hitchens."

Selling books is one thing. Selling a world view is quite another, and the two don't necessarily coincide. After all, look how many copies of the Bible are sold in America every year.

Posted by: Rob Grano | Oct 10, 2007 11:31:43 AM

There are, what, 20 million self-identified atheists in the United States? That's something less than 7% of the population. If just 10% of them buy a book, it will be a best-seller. Atheists like to have their worldview reinforced just as much as Christians. We're all human. A small fraction of Christians made "The Passion of the Christ" a blockbuster.

Posted by: Gene Godbold | Oct 10, 2007 11:46:49 AM

>>>When the choice is between beauty and ugliness, between hope and despair, between community and loneliness, why are so many choosing to immerse themselves in this bleak, dark and dank world of godlessness?<<<

I think the main answer is psychological. If your internal state is bleak and dark, you see the world that way and are attracted to those who present it that way. And why is there so much bleakness in people? I would say it is from the breakdown of the family, which translates into a lack of love and security. Further, the widespread absence of fathers creates a rootlessness that is a very bleak state to live in. Someone who is lacking a father through abandonment or never having been there would probably have an attitude toward God very different from those with fathers present. God the Father could fill in for the absent father -- and I have seen this in someone I know -- or could be the target of great anger and hatred.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Oct 10, 2007 12:23:36 PM

But I think as well there is often a desire to be one who has the courage to face the stark reality of how things really are. Particularly if all the religion they have been exposed to is sentimental, I very much understand the desire to not be taken in by phony promises, attractive as they may be. The universe may be black, meaningless, and futile, but at least they are brave enough to look this in the face, and perhaps carve out a little bit of meaning in the interim, fleeting though it may be.

Of course, in the end, this often just leads to the situation of the situation of the dwarfs in the Last Battle - they will never be taken in by anything, and thus will never be taken out of their darkness and despair.

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Oct 10, 2007 1:38:02 PM

>>>Um, Richard Dawkins is not having a hard time selling anything. He is a New York Times best seller--so is Hitchens. <<<

A little while ago, a guy in the American Spectator wrote that, in a world where almost everybody who writes a book gets to be a "New York Times Bestselling Author", he wants to be one, too. He has a point--with the book market so subdivided into miniscule segments, it's relatively easy to make the bestseller list in some category. Which means, in most cases, the label "bestseller" is meaningless.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 10, 2007 5:29:12 PM

In reading this thread, I detect an incredible ignorance of Dawkins, his writing, and his views on life.

Anyone who thinks life is "drugery" for Richard Dawkins is either grossly uninformed or profoundly stupid.

I apologize for the harsh tone.

Posted by: big bang | Oct 12, 2007 12:27:41 AM

Big Bang,

The point is that his views are ILLOGICAL. You cannot, as he does, claim that the badness of the universe disproves the existence of God, while at the same time maintaining that "good" and "bad" are mere mental constructs, epiphenomena of what's really real, namely biological processes. By the way, the argument "There's too much wrong with it!" goes back to the materialist Lucretius and his predecessors Democritus and Epicurus. They were NOT great metaphysicians -- they never got around to answering the question, "What do you MEAN, 'wrong'?" -- other than to fall back upon identifying badness with pain, a pretty simplistic position. If Dawkins would stay in his field of botany and not play at philosophy (a subject he knows nothing about, as he makes the most elementary errors in it), we wouldn't be complaining about him, regardless of his atheism. Here's a shocker for you: Thomas Aquinas' proofs for the existence of God do NOT depend upon the notion that the physical universe came into existence at any particular time. In fact Aquinas explicitly states, in the Summa Contra Gentiles, (I think he's wrong about this, though) that you cannot, by reason alone, prove that the universe must have had a temporal beginning. It's clear that Dawkins hasn't really troubled to ask what Aquinas and the other Aristotelians mean by the idea of "cause". It's clear too that he has not delved deeply into what the Christian philosophers and theologians mean by "God" -- he consistently reduces God to a kind of naturalistic pagan deity, a thing-in-the-world that can be analyzed in the same way you could analyze a scarab beetle. All he ends up proving is that an omnipotent scarab beetle cannot exist. Christians are well aware of that. They were the ones who preached it, when they blasted the pagan pantheon out of the water. See Lactantius' use of the ATHEIST Lucretius.

Posted by: Tony Esolen | Oct 12, 2007 9:28:21 AM

Also: it's Hitchens who is dour, almost pathologically so. I have heard that Dawkins is cheerful enough, until he smells the prospect of setting fire to churches everywhere.

Posted by: Tony Esolen | Oct 12, 2007 10:18:32 AM

...then he gets downright perky!

Posted by: Gene Godbold | Oct 12, 2007 10:27:30 AM

'It's clear too that he has not delved deeply into what the Christian philosophers and theologians mean by "God"'

That's a great point, Tony, and one that's also made by David B. Hart in his book on the tsunami and the problem of evil. The god that these atheists choose to attack is a god that has no temples and that no one worships. Not only is he not real, he doesn't even 'exist' in the minds of any ostensible worshippers.

Posted by: Rob Grano | Oct 12, 2007 10:28:19 AM

Rob,
Never underestimate the stupidity of either yourself or your fellow worshippers. I can't imagine what sort of gross characterizations that I have had about God through my own life. Thankfully, He's a forgiving sort.
:-)

Posted by: Gene Godbold | Oct 12, 2007 10:31:01 AM

Your caricature of Dawkins in the first two paragraphs is very interesting, but alas, it isn't a very good argument. That last line of the second paragraph, that he may as logically have argued the other way, is erroneous due to the fact that Good and Bad are not symmetric.

Good does not need, but Bad does. Good is desirable, so once we have achieved Good, we're done. On the other hand, Bad is undesirable, and it requires coping, rationalization, and fixing. If something is Bad, this is an unhappy state of affairs and we must regain Goodness somehow, maybe by postulating that the Bad is a work of an invisible being who is infinitely Good and therefore the Bad is just a Good in disguise, that this invisible being is incomprehensible so we'll just have to "have faith" that the Bad is necessary for the Good without understanding it. Something that's Good requires no such mental acrobatics. This is why there's a Problem of Evil but not a Problem of Good: Good is not a problem.

And you can design invisible beings to answer any question that needs an answer. Where did we come from? Invisible beings created us. Where do we go when we die? To an invisible place. Why do I need to behave? Because the invisible beings will punish me if I don't. Why do we do what we do? Because invisible beings told us to. And so on. Luckily for us, science has been answering these questions -- evolution, for example -- so that we don't have to make up invisible beings to answer them for us. But there are some very difficult questions whose answers are difficult or unsatisfying without invisible beings, especially: WHY are we here? Invisible beings created us for a specific purpose. Without the invisible beings, this question has no answer -- we're here because we're here, and that's the end of it. That's not a happy answer.

I also take issue with your blaming Dawkins for cursing your deity. Job cursed the world but not God, you said, and you'd take seriously someone who said the world was Bad from that perspective. But why not say that God is bad? Remember, Dawkins does not believe in gods, so there's no reason not to question gods. If you think that he has no right to question gods, as you seem to imply (obviously he has the legal right; that's not what I mean), then you are guilty of the same sin of judging those who don't agree with you. If you want to argue for belief in God, you'll have to do it without assuming God.

With Hitchens's Mother Teresa example, he's completely correct -- she was selfishly helping people because it brought her pleasure. I haven't read Hitchens so I don't know if this is what he meant, but EVERYONE selfishly does what brings him or her pleasure, ALL THE TIME; this is trivial. I'm only writing this because refuting bad arguments gives me pleasure -- perhaps because I enjoy spreading thinking and understanding, but if I had something I wanted to do more right now, I'd be doing it.

I think it's important to draw a line between "the world is Bad" and "everything sucks". Intellectually, the former holds to some extent; emotionally, not necessarily. I agree that the world is horrible, for instance, and I can point out many examples of horrible things in the world (let's start with homophobia). There are problems with the world, and problems are Bad by definition. However, I don't spend my life suffering; I'm not a Lutheran (I imagine Bach was always in pain, judging by the text to his music). I enjoy life very much, and I appreciate the great things about the world. I'm generally happy and often euphoric. But that doesn't change that there are some deep problems in the world. If belief in invisible beings like your god, God, helps people ease their suffering, maybe such a belief is a good thing to that extent, but insofar as it is just wishful thinking, perhaps it isn't so good.

Posted by: Mauro | Oct 12, 2007 1:43:47 PM

o "And you can design invisible beings to answer any question that needs an answer. Where did we come from? Invisible beings created us." (Mauro)

Not quite. Jesus is God and Jesus was visible.

o "Luckily for us, science has been answering these questions -- evolution, for example -- so that we don't have to make up invisible beings to answer them for us."

Ahhh yes, evolution.

There seems to be a strong correlation between atheism and neo-darwinian macro-evolution. Or is that just random chance I'm seeing?

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 2:09:39 PM

"I'm only writing this because refuting bad arguments gives me pleasure -- perhaps because I enjoy spreading thinking and understanding, but if I had something I wanted to do more right now, I'd be doing it."

Mauro, may I introduce you to Stuart Koehl?

;-)

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 2:13:19 PM

>>>With Hitchens's Mother Teresa example, he's completely correct -- she was selfishly helping people because it brought her pleasure. <<<

Actually, I don't think so. Neither Hitchens, nor you, nor most Catholics for that matter, understood what Mother Teresa was after. Her purpose was not really to improve the situation of the poor (this is what bugged Hitchens, who thought that by taking the dying beggars off the street, she allowed the situation to perpetuate itself), nor to alleviate the suffering of individual persons (although her ministry had that felicitous side effect). Rather, she was making an eschatological statement about the image and likeness of God within "even the least among you", and for that reason it was necessary for her and her ministry to employ a "personalist" approach, individuals dealing with individuals. Each of the poor was the icon of Christ; thus, she reenacted the parable of the sheep and the goats, and through that made the Kingdom immanent.

Now, did it give her pleasure? Reading of her spiritual struggles, one wonders. Still, if we fall back upon the classic Greek philosophical concept of "telos"--the purpose for which someone or something is made--then we can perhaps follow the lead of the Greeks who believed that a being was truly happy when fulfilling its telos. A dog is happy doing doggy things, a cow bovine things, a human, human things. The Greek Fathers believed that man was made to worship--that his telos was to share in the divine nature and thus experience perfect communion with God, offering to Him the "right glory" which is his due. Mother Teresa attempted to fulfill that Telos both by living in Christ, and by finding Christ in the poor and dying she aided. On that basis, one might hope that at the end she found happiness, but if that is selfish, it is a paradoxical selfishness that derives from kenosis, or self-emptying, and giving up one's self for others.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 12, 2007 2:49:32 PM

An interesting development:

Atheist Radio Show Goes National on Air America, With Ron Reagan as Guest

Friday, October 12, 2007


Excerpt: "To know [the Bible] in most cases is to doubt it, although any of it can be taken literally," Hitchens said, when recounting tales of his book tour. "This doubt is actually quite widespread. And after all, I didn't expect that by the end of the tour, we'd have a book by Mother Teresa saying she didn't believe a word of it."

(The book to which Hitchens referred, "Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light," is a compilation of letters written by the Nobel Peace Prize winner over 66 years. In some of those letters, Mother Teresa wrote that she was tormented by her faith and occasionally doubted the existence of God.)

Hitchens described as "immoral" the Christian tenet that Jesus Christ died for the sins of others.

"It is an attempt to evade responsibility and re-adopt the ancient ritual of scapegoating," he said.

Freethought Radio also features a "Theocracy Alert" segment that discusses recent religion and church-and-state themed news from an atheist perspective, and the "Pagan Pulpit," when Barker, who became an atheist after years of being a believing minister and missionary, reads and deconstructs a passage from the Bible."

From: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300719,00.html

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 2:52:22 PM

>>But why not say that God is bad? Remember, Dawkins does not believe in gods, so there's no reason not to question gods. If you think that he has no right to question gods, as you seem to imply (obviously he has the legal right; that's not what I mean), then you are guilty of the same sin of judging those who don't agree with you. If you want to argue for belief in God, you'll have to do it without assuming God.<<

This misses the point. What Dawkins and other atheists of his sort do is to attack a general all-purpose deity, thinking that this construct contains all permutations of God, and that therefore by disproving this god-in-general they've debunked the Judeo-Christian God. This won't work however, since Jews and Christians don't worship a general, all-purpose God. In fact, there is no religion to my knowledge that posits a god-in-general, so to attack him/it doesn't really pertain to religion as it's actually practiced and adhered to by any of its practitioners.

And furthermore, as Dr. Esolen says above, when Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, do try to focus on the Christian God, they get it wrong.

This would be like building up a philosophical and logical case against the Hindu goddess Kali, then at the end saying, "Therefore, Jehovah doesn't exist!," or a scientist spending months studying Loch Ness, reading the histories, going down in a submarine, etc., concluding that Nessie's a myth, then adding that obviously Sasquatch is too.


Posted by: Rob Grano | Oct 12, 2007 3:14:12 PM

"Even God doesn't oppose atheists, He opposes evil and the destructive spiritual forces arrayed against His good creation." (Gene Godbold)

I've asked for a clarification on this puzzling statement, but I've never received a response.

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 3:23:19 PM

You think that's puzzling? To me it's obvious.

Posted by: Gene Godbold | Oct 12, 2007 3:40:08 PM

>>>You think that's puzzling? To me it's obvious.<<<

Me too. Must be you, TUAD.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 12, 2007 3:43:21 PM

It's me.

When an atheist dies, does s/he spend eternity with God in heaven? If not, then it looks to me like God opposes atheists.

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 3:46:50 PM

>>When an atheist dies, does s/he spend eternity with God in heaven?

If you believe the Gospel of Matthew, then yes, so long as the atheist was kind to Christians.

For a much more fun account of Judgment for an atheist, read Chesterton's *The Ball and the Cross.*

Posted by: DGP | Oct 12, 2007 3:57:14 PM

>>>Atheist Radio Show Goes National on Air America, With Ron Reagan as Guest<<<

His twelve listeners will really appreciate him.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Oct 12, 2007 4:00:05 PM

>>When an atheist dies, does s/he spend eternity with God in heaven?

"If you believe the Gospel of Matthew, then yes, so long as the atheist was kind to Christians." (DGP)

What part of Matthew are you looking at DGP? Also, wouldn't you look at *all* of Scripture to obtain a fully biblical response to that question?

Also, I read the amazon.com reviews of the Chesterton book. It looks like a very good read!

---------

Still not obvious to me. Would you like to clarify and explain?

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 4:20:38 PM

Dear Gene Godbold,

Given that you have a BS in chemistry, a PhD in biochemistry, four years of a postdoc (mostly molecular biology), and two years of teaching college, not to mention five years of analyzing biotechnology (not to mention the three years of concurrent seminary study), could you deign to explain and clarify your statement which is obvious to you, but still puzzling to me:

"Even God doesn't oppose atheists, He opposes evil and the destructive spiritual forces arrayed against His good creation."

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 4:35:29 PM

Mauro,

>And you can design invisible beings to answer any question that needs an answer. Where did we come from? Invisible beings created us. Where do we go when we die? To an invisible place. Why do I need to behave? Because the invisible beings will punish me if I don't. Why do we do what we do? Because invisible beings told us to. And so on.<

I agree, abstractly, that one CAN design invisible beings, and even that one MIGHT, especially since SCIENCE cannot answer a single one of the questions listed. And I do agree that they need an answer. But Jews and Christians have never, ever designed one of those invisible beings. Why aren't you aware of that? Because with eyes like yours, the bible is invisible, I guess. Oh, I especially love how you home-spun the stupiedst and most unreflective relationship between "belief" and "punishment" out of your little imagination.

>but EVERYONE selfishly does what brings him or her pleasure, ALL THE TIME; this is trivial.<

Excuse me, but I just have to rip that to shreds.

First of all, why don't you search Wikipedia for "hair shirt." This sort of discipline is found in all kinds of traditions of wisdom throughout the world, you know.

Second, let me cite you a true scientific study. Unfortunately I have lost the citation, but if others know what I'm talking about, perhaps you could remember the citation for me. It's a long-term study of child development. When the child subjects were young, they were brought together, and a teacher said, "Here, I'm giving each one of you a marshmellow." Then the teacher said, "Now I have to leave you alone for a moment. Tell you what. If you still have a marshmellow in your hand when I get back, I'll give you another one, and you can have two. Or, you can eat the one you have. Your choice. But you won't get another one if you eat it." Then the teacher left the children alone for a set amount of time. The study tracked the children long-term and found that the success and quality of their life is positively corrolated with refusing to eat the marshmellow.

Conclusion: Those who can tie pleasure up like a slave, tell it to go to hell and bring it back at will, are better men. That is, of course, a universally known fact of wisdom. All that a scientific study can do is provide a cute illustration of what was known for ages already.

But when I read a statement like yours, "But everyone is selfishly pleasure-seeking all the time," it makes me think of one of those kids who ate the marshemellow and is now trying to rationalize his regret and his jealousy toward the kids who did better than him.

-----

TUAD,

God opposes atheists and they don't go to heaven? I recommend that you read *The Great Divorce*.

Posted by: Clifford Simon | Oct 12, 2007 5:04:35 PM

Dear Clifford,

How does reading "The Great Divorce" help in understanding Gene Godbold's statement:

"Even God doesn't oppose atheists, He opposes evil and the destructive spiritual forces arrayed against His good creation."

I should still like to receive a clarifying statement from him, if he would be so kind.

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 12, 2007 5:20:17 PM

>>What part of Matthew are you looking at DGP?

Matthew 25:31-46. You Protestants really should read the Bible more often. :-)

>>Also, wouldn't you look at *all* of Scripture to obtain a fully biblical response to that question?

Yes, and the entire trajectory of Christian biblical commentary, up to the present day. You will find in that trajectory a distinction among, say, the atheism of selfish folly (which often masquerades as piety), the lamentary protest against injustice (that often masquerades as atheism), and the agnosticism of Ecclesiastes (occasionally described as practical atheism).

Then there's philosophical atheism, merely an intellectual tenet that can be inherited from teachers or authorities without fault of the adherent. What will happen to such atheists? They will simply disappear, for on Judgment Day there will be no such persons.

Ultimately, on Judgment Day, there will be no atheists

Posted by: DGP | Oct 12, 2007 8:41:38 PM

You Protestants really should read the Bible more often. :-)

Hey! Watch it, bub. I daresay I've been known to read the Bible fairly regularly. And that's not even counting the lectionary. ;-)

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Oct 12, 2007 10:57:28 PM

>>Hey! Watch it, bub.

Just teasing TUAD. If you're talking of Matthew, and final Judgment, would you not think of chapter 25? TUAD didn't, and I found it mildly amusing.

I confess the amusement may be mine alone. Catholics often ask me, "How come Catholics don't read the Bible?" I couldn't resist the opportunity to redirect the question elsewhere.

In any case, the real question is not so much whether one reads the Bible, but whether one makes an effort to understand it and live accordingly.

Posted by: DGP | Oct 12, 2007 11:13:28 PM

"In any case, the real question is not so much whether one reads the Bible, but whether one makes an effort to understand it and live accordingly."

Agreed DGP. Thus when reviewing the dialogue:

Me: "When an atheist dies, does s/he spend eternity with God in heaven?"

DGP: "If you believe the Gospel of Matthew, then yes, so long as the atheist was kind to Christians."

Me: "What part of Matthew are you looking at DGP?"

DGP: "Matthew 25:31-46."

Dear DGP, is it then your understanding and your exegesis of this passage that one of the teachings of Jesus is that an atheist can spend eternity with God in Heaven as long as s/he was kind to Christians?

Is this teaching/preaching on this particular passage unique to your ministry or is this what the Roman Catholic church teaches on this passage as well?


Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 13, 2007 8:34:22 AM

>>Dear DGP, is it then your understanding and your exegesis of this passage that one of the teachings of Jesus is that an atheist can spend eternity with God in Heaven as long as s/he was kind to Christians?

Yes, with the clarification that it means one who is *now* an atheist may spend eternity with God in Heaven. However, there are no atheists in Heaven in the sense that they *remain* atheists in Heaven.

Please note the Christocentric basis of this understanding of Matthew. It's not that atheists can be saved because they're *nice,* but because they're nice to *Christians.* Their love for Jesus' disciples may be reckoned by the Lord as love for himself. (This, in turn, reflects the Lord's infinite love for his disciples.)

>>Is this teaching/preaching on this particular passage unique to your ministry or is this what the Roman Catholic church teaches on this passage as well?

The Church rarely renders a definitive and exclusive interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture. I believe the scholarly interpretation is fully consistent with the mind of the Church, particularly as it relates to the radical and even mystical identification of Christ with his Church.

On the subject of the salvation of atheists, the Church is ambiguous. "Atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion," but "the imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and circumstances." In particular, some "have such a faulty notion of God that when they disown this product of the imagination their denial has no reference to the God of the Gospels."

In general, man is a mystery to himself. It is therefore a mistake for anyone to render eternal judgments of specific persons, and also *judgments based on reductionist views of the person." This side of Judgment Day, we cannot establish a 100% correlation between intellectual atheism and damnable alientation from God.

The Church excludes no class of people, as such, from Heaven, except "those who do not persevere in charity." As you might expect, opinions about perseverance in charity vary widely. I don't think my understanding would raise Benedict's eyebrows at all; quite the contrary.

Posted by: DGP | Oct 13, 2007 9:28:08 AM

Kind thanks for sharing your understanding DGP. It's been very instructive. Caveat. Not instructive in the sense that I adopt your understanding as my own, but instructive in the sense that I understand better what you mean and where you're coming from.

In honest transparency, I am not of the same mind as you with your exegesis of this passage, but let me offset that with my fervent hope that you are correct in stating that atheists can be saved if they are "nice" to Christians! In other words, I remain rather skeptical of that claim, but I hope I am wrong!

Pax.

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 13, 2007 10:10:23 AM

>>>In honest transparency, I am not of the same mind as you with your exegesis of this passage, but let me offset that with my fervent hope that you are correct in stating that atheists can be saved if they are "nice" to Christians! In other words, I remain rather skeptical of that claim, but I hope I am wrong!<<<

I would go beyond DGP and say that the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats indicates that salvation is open to those who follow Christ's instruction to feed him, clothe him, shelter him and comfort him in the persons of the least among us. For ultimately, the Great Commandment, to love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul, and your neighbor as yourself, in effect comes down to love of the Lord, for man is made in the image and likeness of God, and love of our fellow man passes through the icon to the Prototype. To love your neighbor as yourself is also to love the Lord, even if you do not know the Lord. For it was recognized even by the Fathers that "righteous gentiles" who lived in accordance with the divine law written in the hearts of all men (what the Orthodox would call the image of God) could by divine grace redeem them even if they did not know or acknowledge Christ. The Church teaches that all who are saved are saved through Christ and Christ's Church, and therefore they must somehow mystically be connected to it, even if no visible linkages are perceived. The man who in life professed atheism, if he did so out of conviction and yet still lived a life of righteousness, COULD still be saved by his observance of the unwritten law, even though he did not know God in this life. At the moment of death, all is revealed, and I find it hard to believe that any man could, when confronted with the reality of the divine presence, could actually persist in denying its existence.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 13, 2007 10:44:37 AM

>>> The man who in life professed atheism, if he did so out of conviction and yet still lived a life of righteousness, COULD still be saved by his observance of the unwritten law, even though he did not know God in this life. <<<

Curious. There looks to be a semblance or aspect of a "salvation by works" doctrine in this statement.

And respectfully, it appears to open the door to a slippery slope to universalism.

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 13, 2007 1:26:40 PM

Dear Stuart,

While ultimately the possible salvation of those who do not profess Christ in this life is indeed a mystery, I think your closing phrase does not really address the crux of the issue. It is in the end not just a matter of whether the atheist will "presist in denying its existence", since in the end he cannot. It will rather be a question of, once he is confronted with the undeniable fact that God is, whether he will love or hate what he beholds. And a life spent in denial will generally be one far more inclined to hatred, despite whatever good works have been done in this life, for without faith (as belief, assent, and trust) there is not the necessary love of God formed in the soul to rightly shape one's nature for that dread final hour.

Posted by: James A. Altena | Oct 13, 2007 1:37:39 PM

I must admit that I have not researched this. What did the early fathers have to say on the possibility of salvation for those who denied God throughout their life?

I believe it is dangerous to assume that a lifelong atheist may be saved. As I said before, if God chooses to so grace any such individuals, then praise be His Name. And if He does not, then praise be His Name. I am sure that whatever the case, He will act out of perfect justice and mercy and love.

Posted by: GL | Oct 13, 2007 1:43:26 PM

>>>It will rather be a question of, once he is confronted with the undeniable fact that God is, whether he will love or hate what he beholds. <<<

Well, there is that. But, by that point, he will no longer be an atheist, will he? That is, having been confronted with the Light, will the Light be received as warmth and comfort, or pain and torment? While the Light is the source of our salvation, our rejection of the Light, and that alone, is the source of our damnation. In other words, we are saved by Christ, and damned by ourselves.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 13, 2007 1:45:05 PM

In other words, we are saved by Christ, and damned by ourselves.

Amen.

Posted by: GL | Oct 13, 2007 1:46:25 PM

>>>I believe it is dangerous to assume that a lifelong atheist may be saved. <<<

I assume nothing, in either direction--neither that the atheist is saved, or that, conversely, he is damned. God is the judge, not us.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 13, 2007 1:46:42 PM

"God is the judge, not us." (Stuart)

I don't think anybody disagrees with that.

>>>I believe it is dangerous to assume that a lifelong atheist may be saved. <<< (GL)

"I assume nothing, in either direction--neither that the atheist is saved, or that, conversely, he is damned." (Stuart)

Is that what you teach as well? Is this what the Byzantine Catholic Church believes and teaches too?

Assuming this is what you and the Eastern Catholic Church believe and teach, what impact does such a belief have on the other aspects of your doctrine and orthopraxy?

Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 13, 2007 1:59:10 PM

We may not judge an individual's eternal fate, but we can read what Scripture says. For example, John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (ESV) That doesn't look to good for the atheist.

Posted by: GL | Oct 13, 2007 2:00:09 PM

Post a comment