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October 08, 2007
The Disproof Text
Ms. Debra Haffner of the Religious Institute for Sexual Morality, Justice, and Healing is angry with me for calling her "Miss Hospitality" in my previous post. I do see that there's some vinegar in the title. It seemed better than Miss Sodomy, Miss Apostasy, Miss Heresy, and Miss Interpretation, but I agree, I had dipped my pen in gall. Or, these days, my ten fingers. I am sorry for that gall.
I wish she'd feel the same scrupulosity about appearing to call everybody who disagrees with her on the lawfulness of sodomy a "fundamentalist." Now that is not just an acid nickname, intended to insult. It's a slander -- given the way that word is commonly used. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything at all. If it's supposed to signify a "Biblical literalist," then we need to know what kind of literalism is being practiced. It must be an awfully broadminded and flexible literalism that can include the Pope of Rome, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. It must be a warmly tolerant attention to the words of Scripture that can unite Luther and Leo X, after all these years. Oh, anybody can pretend to unite around nothing: we can all agree that the Scripture is to be tossed into the fire, and then go forth to toss one another into the fire, about global warming or Iraq or the price of gasoline. But to unite around something -- that commands attention.
Yet I think I rather like that insulting name, "fundamentalist." It suggests -- whatever the insulter may intend -- a thinker, someone who does not wish to reside in the mushy middle of sentiment. That is, a fundamentalist is somebody who pays attention to foundations: he wants to know whether the floor beneath him has girders and posts and concrete anchors. He wants to know whether, when the wolf comes howling -- and the wolf does follow a well-noted lupine schedule -- his house will remain standing. The Christian householder, confronted with the question of whether it would be a good thing to drill a large hole in his floor, should be forgiven if he asks first what the cornerstone thinks about it. We come from various communions, and our houses look a bit different -- some are Italianate with fancy tiles on the roof, and some are as spare as a lone steeple in Kansas -- but we look to the Word of God, and the historical teachings of our churches, and, without depending too heavily upon it, the natural reason God endowed us with. These are our fundamentals, and we are flatfooted enough to believe that they do not contradict themselves, or one another.
Now it won't do to say, "We use the Scriptures too, we respect the Scriptures, we love the Scriptures, but we interpret them in a truer and fuller way." It won't do, because interpretation is the last thing that's going on. If I say to my wife, "I am examining your body in the hope of finding blemishes," she is well within her rights to slap me in the face. And that's what is going on -- an unseemly hunt for supposed blemishes, not so that one may interpret them correctly, but so that one may discount them, and refrain from interpreting them at all. So, for instance, we hunt down a little mole called "Deutero-Paul," not so that we may synthesize the theology of the old genius named Paul with the newly recognized genius named Paul, but so that we may subordinate Paul the Second to Paul the First, ignoring what Paul the Second has to say when it seems to jar with what Paul the First has to say. The process does not even require an actual second person: sometimes Paul the First just isn't himself, as when in 1 Corinthians he tartly advises the women to keep their peace in the assembly. Then a putative Not Paul Really can be subordinated to Genuine Paul, also not to spur interpretation, but to remove the need for it.
I've seen the same dynamic at work in the leftist Catholic argument to justify abortion. Thomas Aquinas, it's said, believed that the human embryo was "ensouled" at some moment during gestation. His belief was based on the biological knowledge of his time. Therefore, you see, abortion up till that moment of ensoulment (and we don't know when that is, so we'll kindly not press the matter) should be considered licit. Of course, the people who argue this way don't care a flip about Thomas Aquinas. They will not cite his theological arguments to show that abortion is always evil, period. They will certainly not cite his arguments to show that sodomy and fornication are also evil. One little bit of Thomas -- an apparent blemish -- is used to discredit the Church's teaching. Here we have the remarkable instance of modernist critics trusting the medieval biology of a theologian. I prefer to trust his theology, thank you.
Ms. Haffner notes that some of the rabbis in the Midrash said that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality -- their cruelty and greed. But, meaning no disrespect -- woman, what is that to me? Some of the rabbis also say that Jesus was a rabble rouser who got himself into trouble. I don't have to believe that. They also say, following the Torah, that fornication is an evil. Not "sex without commitment" or "sex without Love" (pronounced "luhv," the force that makes the world and people's heads go round), but simply "sex without marriage." Ms. Haffner doesn't care to believe that.
So the Midrash is neither here nor there. It can add nothing to Ms. Haffner's argument. Same thing for Ezekiel, who expatiated upon Sodom's sins (actually, who applied the example of Sodom to his own people), and who did not name sodomy, unless he included it under "abomination," or unless he figured that nobody needed to be advised about that one. Consider, had a prophet said of Hitler, "he was cruel, he aspired to godhood, he lied, he committed abominations," would we then conclude that his gas chambers were somehow excused? Such non-interpreters don't believe that Ezekiel always knew what he was talking about, any more than they believe that the writer of Genesis (whom they are glad to see divided into J, E, D, and P, so that P can take a back seat to J, E, and D) knew what he was talking about. You use Ezekiel, whom you don't trust, to disprove JED, whom you don't trust. And you do so to arrive at the opinion of the one you do trust: Mr. Passing Fad.
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Comments
>>>Yet I think I rather like that insulting name, "fundamentalist." It suggests -- whatever the insulter may intend -- a thinker, someone who does not wish to reside in the mushy middle of sentiment.<<<
In Western Europe, the term means any Christian who makes a public utterance regarding his faith. Thus, I was surprised to learn, from an otherwise reasonable, intelligent person, that Tony Blair and Geirge Bush got on so well together "because, you know, they're both fundamentalists". Well, if that was the case, I wondered if this person knew he was sitting across the table from someone he might well associate with the Ayatollah Khomeni. But, of course, in Western Europe, there are no "Muslim fundamentalists", the term being applied only to those who follow Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 8, 2007 4:59:27 AM
First to Dr. Esolen: isn't it remarkable that Ms Haffner even CARES what you call her in a blog post on this site?
Then to Stuart Koehl: as a Western European and German-speaker, living in Austria with an English wife and having additionally lived in France, Holland, Germany and the UK, I would like to take issue with your assertion that there are no "Muslim fundamentalists" in Western Europe. While it is true that the term is applied to Christians who dare to bring their religious convictions to bear on their public actions, the term is equally applied to Muslims who act on their convictions where those convictions go against societal standards -- and not just when these convictions lead them into terrorist acts. Thus there are ongoing debates in almost all European countries about the Islamic fundamentalist practice of covering or veiling women in public, as well as about the Christian and Islamic fundamentalist notion that there is a Designer behind the Creation, etc. Christians may speak about their faith without being labeled fundamentalists as long as they don't imply that it should have any influence on public policy.
Posted by: Wolf N. Paul | Oct 8, 2007 6:46:45 AM
>>But, of course, in Western Europe, there are no "Muslim fundamentalists", the term being applied only to those who follow Jesus Christ.
Were this true, I would be content: The origin of the term is Christian, and really only applies to Christians of a certain stripe. The problem is, the term is used analogously of non-Christians. The analogy is very loose, consisting of "religious people we don't like," or "religious people whose political agenda oppose ours." Thus Christian fundamentalists who want to read the Bible in public schools are compared to Muslims who want to execute converts from Islam.
Such uses of "fundamentalist" have appeared in *The Economist,* and probably other Western European publications. The net effect is to hijack the evils of Islamism in order to oppose the perceived conservatism of Christianity. It's unfair to Christians, but it's also treacherous to the West, for it confuses and handicaps a more rational and effective response to Islamism.
Posted by: DGP | Oct 8, 2007 6:54:09 AM
Using the more narrowly defined meaning of fundamentalist that I grew up with, I would have to say that The Reverend Haffner appears to be an anti-fundamentalist. This would mean having defined herself in opposition to fundamentalist she cannot read the whole text in the manner it should be read.
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Oct 8, 2007 7:11:26 AM
I think Mr. Winters has a good idea here. Let the opposite of "fundamentalism" be "speculism": It consists of flighty speculation, loosed from its grounding, unconnected to what is necessary to sustain it. It is also specular, in that it essentially mirrors the whims of its practitioners.
As a bonus, it is also like a speculum, insofar as it intrudes into bodily orifices for the purposes of unpleasant examinations.
Posted by: DGP | Oct 8, 2007 8:01:09 AM
I believe the practical definition of "fundamentalist" is anyone to dares to tell a lunatic that his particular delusions are not true, let alone trustworthy.
Neurotics are people who build castles in the sky.
Psychotics live in them.
Fundamentalists try to tell them they are really still on the ground.
Posted by: Christopher Hathaway | Oct 8, 2007 8:39:29 AM
>Let the opposite of "fundamentalism" be "speculism": It consists of flighty speculation, loosed from its grounding, unconnected to what is necessary to sustain it. It is also specular, in that it essentially mirrors the whims of its practitioners.
And we'll be seeing fundamentalists in heaven, I'm not so sure about speculists...
dave
Posted by: David Gray | Oct 8, 2007 10:04:15 AM
"Miss Interpretation" WOULD have been better, though.
I think, in common parlance, "fundamentalist" means "believer" - someone who believes in a religion, rather than having a "faith tradition" which merely adds a sort of flavor to the ordinary secular sensibilities of our time.
A religious non-fundamentalist, on the other hand, claims association with a religion despite having discarded - or at least asserting that he's willing, when necessary or even convenient, to discard - things "fundamental" to it.
Posted by: Joe Long | Oct 8, 2007 10:32:58 AM
There's no doubt that the word "fundamentalist" is frequently used in a derogatory sense, a pejorative ad hominem smear. Instead of engaging in the substance of the argument, it's easier to name-call someone a fundamentalist and end the debate.
I've had a measure of success in mirroring the tactic back upon the name-caller. I term them "liberal fundamentalists" or "leftist fundamentalists" or "secular fundamentalists" and it invariably perks them up to see their chosen epithet of choice being used to label them.
For some reason, they're not happy about that.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 8, 2007 10:44:54 AM
Whether we here at MC are all “fundamentalists” of one sort or another, I leave to the theologians to decide. I think it’s fair to say that the difference between us and Ms. Haffner is that we all tremble before the Word of God and she does not. Some day, alas too late I fear, she will as well.
Posted by: Bill R | Oct 8, 2007 12:37:18 PM
"I think it’s fair to say that the difference between us and Ms. Haffner is that we all tremble before the Word of God and she does not." (Bill R)
I'm not sure about that. She probably just trembles at different aspects of the Word. And she probably thinks nasty Catholic Fundamentalists like Tony Esolen are "trembling" wrongfully at those historically misinterpreted passages. Eventually, this nasty Catholic fundamentalism will eventually be corrected and transcended by the patient, loving, inclusive and helpful work of leftist-liberal theologians.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 8, 2007 12:55:55 PM
"She probably just trembles at different aspects of the Word." - TUAD
Trembling with indignation doesn't count.
Posted by: Bill R | Oct 8, 2007 4:13:33 PM
So, for instance, we hunt down a little mole called "Deutero-Paul," not so that we may synthesize the theology of the old genius named Paul with the newly recognized genius named Paul...
I laughed out loud at this one.
Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Oct 8, 2007 4:19:08 PM
>>I laughed out loud at this one.
Everyone knows that Ephesians and Colossians were not written by Paul, but by someone else of the same name. :-)
Posted by: DGP | Oct 8, 2007 4:22:51 PM
I took a quick look to see what Tony Esolen got himself involved in. Here it is:
Founded in 2001, the Religious Institute on Sexual Morality, Justice and Healing is a multi-faith organization dedicated to advocating for sexual health, education, and justice in faith communities and society. ... The Religious Institute's mission is to change the way America understands the relationship of sexuality and religion.
The primary objectives of the Religious Institute include:
o Developing and supporting a network of clergy, religious educators, theologians, ethicists, and other religious leaders committed to sexual justice
o Building the capacity of religious institutions and clergy to offer sexuality education within the context of their own faith traditions
o Helping congregations become sexually healthy faith communities
o Educating the public and policymakers about a progressive religious vision of sexual morality, justice, and healing.
------------
Question to conservative Nicene Creed Touchstone Mere Commenters: How should "we", both corporately and individually respond to progressive liberal Christians and their religious vision of sexual morality, justice, and healing?
(a) Ignore it and let it pass. Do nothing. Other than pray.
(b) Expose it and fight against it as Dr. Esolen has done.
(c) Get into a war of words as Dr. Esolen has done.
(d) Say that you politely disagree with them, but do nothing more than that.
What is the God-glorifying Nicene Creed Christian's response to the gathering movement in society and in the Church to gain mainstream acceptance of same-sex behavior and the legitimization of same-sex marriage?
Is there any way that you can oppose without being smeared? I kinda doubt it, especially if you're dialoguing with GLBT militants.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 8, 2007 4:33:22 PM
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Oct 8, 2007 6:05:12 PM
I find laughing at them tends to deflate their arguments and also greatly annoys them, because they take themselves so seriously. Laughter and ridicule are to them what sunlight is to vampires.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 8, 2007 6:17:58 PM
>>Laughter and ridicule are to them what sunlight is to vampires.
Certainly, the aforementioned Rev. Haffner was inviting ridicule when she declared, "And oh, by the way, I'm an ordained minister. That's Reverend Haffner." Hang out a shingle, and you're a dignitary or an expert?
Posted by: DGP | Oct 8, 2007 6:21:35 PM
"Laughter and ridicule are to them what sunlight is to vampires." (Stuart Koehl)
I think I can do that. Heh, heh, heh...
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 8, 2007 6:22:35 PM
BTW, I've met quite a few vampires in my life, and none of them seemed to mind the sunlight very much, so long as no one stopped them from sucking the life out of others.
Posted by: DGP | Oct 8, 2007 6:45:49 PM
"What is the God-glorifying Nicene Creed Christian's response to the gathering movement in society and in the Church to gain mainstream acceptance of same-sex behavior and the legitimization of same-sex marriage?" (Me)
"I find laughing at them tends to deflate their arguments and also greatly annoys them, because they take themselves so seriously. Laughter and ridicule are to them what sunlight is to vampires." (Stuart Koehl)
------
Does this prescription for laughter apply equally to the secular liberal-leftists as well as to the leftist-liberal Christians in the Church?
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 8, 2007 7:00:15 PM
>>>Does this prescription for laughter apply equally to the secular liberal-leftists as well as to the leftist-liberal Christians in the Church?<<<
I am an equal opportunity ridiculer.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 8, 2007 7:17:39 PM
"I am an equal opportunity ridiculer."
LOL. I personally have no problem with it. But there are folks who do. Recall "Puzzle" on the "Fear of Death" thread? There are many folks like that, both inside and outside the Church.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 8, 2007 9:53:05 PM
What exactly is sexual justice anyway? Isn't justice in and of itself all encompassing without the need for hyphenated-justices? I think certain people have too much time on their hands and should get real jobs rather than making up this sort of nonsense to lobby for.
Posted by: luthien in France | Oct 9, 2007 2:09:59 AM
>>What exactly is sexual justice anyway?
Aristotle had a category known as "distributive justice." Perhaps that's what they mean. :-)
Posted by: DGP | Oct 9, 2007 2:13:59 AM
>> Aristotle had a category known as "distributive justice." Perhaps that's what they mean. :-)
:) :)
Posted by: Alex | Oct 9, 2007 5:52:51 AM
"What is the God-glorifying Nicene Creed Christian's response to the gathering movement in society and in the Church to gain mainstream acceptance of same-sex behavior and the legitimization of same-sex marriage?"
Regain an understanding of *why* same-sex behavior is a sin, be prepared to articulate the reason why it is a sin when appropriate opportunities present themselves, and always live accordingly. If you want to discuss this with me further, TUAD, let's do it offline via email.
Posted by: GL | Oct 9, 2007 6:03:58 AM
It would be interesting to see if the "Religious Institute for Sexual Morality, Justice, and Healing" gets its funding from the same secular foundations that prop up "Catholics for Free Choice", "National Council of Churches", etc.
Posted by: John V | Oct 9, 2007 10:52:15 AM
I guess my response would be that I thought the world already had a religious institute for sexual morality, justice and healing. It's called the Church.
Posted by: Dcn. Michael D. Harmon | Oct 9, 2007 2:07:26 PM
>>I guess my response would be that I thought the world already had a religious institute for sexual morality, justice and healing. It's called the Church.
In the Church, no one has a right to a fulfilling sex life -- hence that problem of (distributive) "justice." Everybody sing, "we shall overcome!"
Posted by: DGP | Oct 9, 2007 2:10:48 PM
Mr. Koehl,
I've got a real problem with the call to laugh at GLBT militants or ... anyone. My personal experience and readings from the Bible seem to make me think that ridicule and mockery is a practice best avoided completely. In today's world, ridicule and mockery are everywhere celebrated (spend an evening on the channel our youth are feeding on - Comedy Central - for a reminder). Responding with listening compassion and perseverant engagement might not get through militant close-mindedness but it will earn the respect of those observing, i.e., those who are open to the persuasion of example and perhaps ultimately, the gospel.
Laughing with them, on the other hand, I wholeheartedly condone (even though they might not be laughing), but this kind of laughter is based upon the humble observance that I have been or still are in the same or similar pickle they seem to be in. This is the compassionate laughter that comes when we see a loved one do something embarrassingly silly/dumb like walking into a parking pole or when we smile at the sanity-defying machinations of adolescents. We laugh because we've been there before or could imagine ourselves there. Well wishes lie behind our chuckles, not ha-ha's ala Nelson on the Simpsons; http://hem.passagen.se/muntz/ .
My concern about the practice of ridicule/mockery is practical; I've a soldier in the theaters frequented with ridicule and mockery - the school and playground of an elementary school boy. How do I guide him in his responses?
Respectfully
Posted by: Tim | Oct 9, 2007 2:17:58 PM
"Regain an understanding of *why* same-sex behavior is a sin, be prepared to articulate the reason why it is a sin when appropriate opportunities present themselves, and always live accordingly. If you want to discuss this with me further, TUAD, let's do it offline via email." (GL)
Before we correspond offline, I'm curious to ask you something: Do you affirm and support what Dr. Tony Esolen has done in his "Miss Hospitality" and "Disproof Texts" with Rev. Debra Haffner of the Religious Institute for Sexual Morality, Justice, and Healing? Dr. Esolen has engaged Rev. Haffner by writing about what his observations are of her arguments. She in turn has said that he was nasty towards people he did not know.
Would you support what Dr. Esolen did? Why or why not? If you would do something different than Dr. Esolen, do you think it would be an improvement over what he did? Why or why not?
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 9, 2007 3:20:32 PM
>>>I've got a real problem with the call to laugh at GLBT militants or ... anyone. My personal experience and readings from the Bible seem to make me think that ridicule and mockery is a practice best avoided completely.<<<
The real problem with the world today is everybody thinks every idea is entitled to a full and fair hearing. Actually, some of them deserve nothing more than to be laughed out of court.
Let me ask you this: was it wrong to mock Hitler in "The Great Dictator", or to make fun of the Nazis in the song "Der Fuehrer's Face"? If no, why not? Are you saying that Nazis deserved a full hearing, that their ideas were worthy of any sort of respect (and the same thing goes, of course, for communists)?
Why then, when some pompous windbag gets on the television and tells me he has every right to be married to his boyfriend, that they should also be allowed to father children by way of an anonymous egg donor, and that they have an open relationship that includes their cat and the neighbor's Grand Marino sheep, should I even bother to give them the time of day?
>>>Responding with listening compassion and perseverant engagement might not get through militant close-mindedness but it will earn the respect of those observing, i.e., those who are open to the persuasion of example and perhaps ultimately, the gospel.<<<
Except, of course, this is not what our opponents want. Their definition of tolerance is not mine. I am perfectly willing to let homosexuals, bi-sexuals and transexuals live in absolute peace--as long as they don't flaunt their deviance in my face or insist that it is entitled to the same degree of societal approbation and legal protection as traditional marriage. But that, unfortunately, is precisely what they want. When you engage in serious dialogue with them, you are merely legitimizing their position. Moreover, we are dealing with an area in which there can be no compromise, since we are right and they are wrong, period, end of discussion.
Individual persons should always be treated with compassion and respect, but stupid and dangerous ideas need to be crushed before they can do further damage. I have found, because the ideas promoted by progressives in almost every area are based not on objective assessment of facts, but on rank emotionalism (Feelings/Nothing more than feelings. . . ) that one cannot sway such people with facts (plenty of evidence of that here). On the other hand, because they do take themselves and their puerile ideas in deadly earnest, laughing at them leaves them totally unhinged.
Since, no matter what I do, I am going to be denounced as a hateful, repressed, homophobic bigot, I would prefer to be hanged for a goat than a sheep. And I refuse to knuckle under to the tyranny of political correctness, the entire purpose of which is to elevate all positions and all narratives to a place of total equality.
>>>My concern about the practice of ridicule/mockery is practical; I've a soldier in the theaters frequented with ridicule and mockery - the school and playground of an elementary school boy. How do I guide him in his responses?<<<
My daughter would tell him to "suck it up". Do you think none of us were exposed to this as children? If we can't cope with it on the playground, how do you think we'll be able to cope with it in real life? For, as Homer Simpson observed, there is the immortal Code of the Schoolyard:
1. Don't tattle
2. Always make fun of those different from you
3. Never say anything unless you're sure everyone feels exactly the same way you do.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 9, 2007 3:37:31 PM
Yes.
Yes.
His was a valid criticism of her "method" of Biblical "interpretation."
No.
Dr. Esolen is a master of the English language. No one could improve on what he said or how he said it.
Let me say briefly, for all, that heterosexuals are just as capable of committing sodomy as homosexuals. Only heterosexuals, however, are capable of sexual acts which are not sodomitic. Unfortunately, there are now "Christian" authors publishing books for married Christian couples which promote sodomy within marriage. They are wolves in the sheep pen and should be exposed just as Ms. Haffner has been. For example, see http://www.gosmalley.com/is-oral-sex-ok-in-a-christian-marriage/2007/02/01/. What Michael Smalley endorsed on the podcast available on the page to which I link has not only been traditionally considered sodomy (at least if consummated) throughout Christian history, it was a crime in several states in our nation not many decades ago and his exegesis of the Song of Solomon is just as flawed as Ms. Haffner's exegesis of Genesis and Ezekiel.
Again, regain an understanding of *why* same-sex behavior is a sin, be prepared to articulate the reason why it is a sin when appropriate opportunities present themselves, and always live accordingly.
Posted by: GL | Oct 9, 2007 3:46:05 PM
"My personal experience and readings from the Bible seem to make me think that ridicule and mockery is a practice best avoided completely."
But Christ didn't. Nor Elijah, nor St. Paul. Rather they deployed it deliberately and effectively - and who knows, but that some of the greatest early Christians won from among the Pharisees were startled into faith by Christ's directly confrontational, sarcastic tactics?
The collection of wisdom in the Proverbs of Solomon asserts that "when the wicked cometh, then cometh contempt"; it is a natural consequence. We are warned - as I read it, anyway - against the sophomoric postmodern "mock-everything" posture (Ps.1:1), and we certainly aren't meant to add to the oppression of the oppressed through mockery - but the pompous left-wing special-privilege groups, who are so continually "affirmed" in their follies, don't need to be protected from phantom hurt feelings - they need to have their delusions challenged, to the possible salvation of their souls.
Posted by: Joe Long | Oct 9, 2007 3:51:58 PM
Dear GL, thanks for the response. BTW, I do agree with your twice repeated exhortation.
I am glad to hear that you affirm and support what Tony Esolen has done. Please do recall, however, the end result of Rev. Haffner's response: She said he was nasty towards people he did not know.
Now there will be other Christians who will roughly do the same thing as Tony has done. Some will do it better, some will do it roughly the same, some will do it worse. And there's a high likelihood that the vast majority of Christians will be name-called by the GLBT liberal progressive Christian.
My point is that you could have subjectively the "best" approach on dealing with a contentious issue with a person on the other side, and you could STILL end up with the same result as Dr. Tony Esolen.
*HOW* you say something is obviously very important. Let's not minimize it's obvious importance. But I am saying that it's not the end-all, be-all that a lot of people make it out to be either.
Case in point: Jesus. Is there anybody on this site who wants to criticize Jesus for *how* he communicated on some substantive issue? Did He always get a positive result from His teachings?
So what I'm saying is that for all the people who believe that *HOW* you say something is the end-all, be-all, and who are hyper-quick to judge and criticize someone like Stuart Koehl, for example, on *how* he communicates an opposing argument, please, please realize that *How* you say something is not an automatic winning formula.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 9, 2007 4:12:51 PM
GL,
The Smalleys were invited to Wheaton two or three years ago for the annual split chapels on sexuality (one chapel for men, one for women). Among many awful elements (including an Al Gore-like exhibitionistic kiss and encouraging the men to make cat-calls at Mrs. Smalley), the worst was the contradictory advice that was given to the two audiences.
To the women: Don't try to change yourself or your behavior to attract a mate.
To the men: Go to any lengths to change yourself and your behavior to attract a mate (or to stalk her, as Mr. Smalley's personal anecdote made clear).
To the women: base your relationship decisions on a man's character and godliness.
To the men: Find the hottest woman around and then go to extreme lengths to get close to her, I guess in order to find out about her character and godliness, or something like that.
Needless to say, the thing was a horrifying debacle and an embarrassment to all concerned. The chaplain, who had invited them, was gobsmacked that they even had a minstry, and I'm sure he resolved to improve his background checking procedures.
There was one good thing that came out of it, though: someone got the recordings of the two talks, edited together the worst bits from each, put a techno beat behind it, and distributed it over the campus network. Everyone enjoyed a good laugh, including several professors and administrators.
And perhaps some, like me, were awakened to the vacuity of the sexual ethics preached by the trendy edge of Evangelicalism.
Posted by: Ethan C. | Oct 9, 2007 5:08:23 PM
Ethan,
I would say that I would not like the task of condemning Ms. Haffner and, at the same time, defending Michael Smalley. I don't believe that it can be done with intellectual honesty. The acceptance of such teachings by middle aged Evangelicals likely goes a long ways toward explaining why their children are accepting of same-sex relationships. If I can get married and "do that," they say to themselves, why can't Adam and Steve? And so we continue, in the words of Judge Bork, to slouch toward Gomorrah.
Posted by: GL | Oct 9, 2007 5:39:22 PM
"... but the pompous left-wing special-privilege groups, who are so continually "affirmed" in their follies, don't need to be protected from phantom hurt feelings - they need to have their delusions challenged, to the possible salvation of their souls." (Joe Long)
Gosh, this statement reminds me of the Hans Christian Anderson fairytale about the emperor's new clothes. The little boy exclaimed that the emperor had no clothes on. This simultaneously punctured the delusions that the emperor was under as well as injuring his feelings. Does anyone castigate the little boy for what he did and how he did it?
Also, one more hypothetical comparison with regards to *how* Tony Esolen approached Rev. Haffner to a comparison with *how* Stuart might have approached it. Stuart might have employed more ridicule, more mockery, more parody, more sarcasm, and more lampooning of Rev. Haffner. And you never know... Stuart's approach might have punctured the delusions that Rev. Haffner has! She just might have responded better to Stuart's approach than Tony Esolen's approach! You just never know!
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 9, 2007 8:44:30 PM
Mr. Koehl,
My Quote: ------I've got a real problem with the call to laugh at GLBT militants or ... anyone. My personal experience and readings from the Bible seem to make me think that ridicule and mockery is a practice best avoided completely.------
As I said, “I’ve” got a problem with using ridicule and mockery. I’m still currently thinking it is best to avoid it. I’m open to persuasion as to its effectiveness and proper use.
Re your arguments/comments:
---The real problem with the world today is everybody thinks every idea is entitled to a full and fair hearing. Actually, some of them deserve nothing more than to be laughed out of court.---
(Process question: I’m new to this game – how do you make those quote arrow marks?)
I’m hesitant to spend time on thinking whether or not they “deserve” to be “in court” – part of, to me, that warning about judging. I’d rather they remain in court in front of everyone and be proven wrong.
---Let me ask you this: was it wrong to mock Hitler in "The Great Dictator", or to make fun of the Nazis in the song "Der Fuehrer's Face"? If no, why not? Are you saying that Nazis deserved a full hearing, that their ideas were worthy of any sort of respect (and the same thing goes, of course, for communists)?---
If early Nazi voices had been listened to (listening to someone is not the same as signing up with them – if nothing else it is learning from thine enemies), corrections might have been made to the Versailles Treaty that could have prevented Germany’s slide into a place where everyday, persuadable Germans ended up going with the Nazi salvation program. Indeed, wasn’t Hitler’s whole program a response to the mockery and ridicule, supposed and actual, of Germany and Germans?
---Why then, when some pompous windbag gets on the television and tells me he has every right to be married to his boyfriend, that they should also be allowed to father children by way of an anonymous egg donor, and that they have an open relationship that includes their cat and the neighbor's Grand Marino sheep, should I even bother to give them the time of day?---
Because if you don’t counter them, the masses begin to become convinced and the next we know all is lost. But in countering them, being a mocking ridiculer won’t win many hearts and minds, I fear. To the contrary, I think it can push many into their corner – to many people, mocking ridiculers come off as pompous windbags, not worthy of considering.
---I am perfectly willing to let homosexuals, bi-sexuals and transexuals live in absolute peace--as long as they don't flaunt their deviance in my face or insist that it is entitled to the same degree of societal approbation and legal protection as traditional marriage.---
They already are flaunting it in our face. The question remains will their movement become societal policy; will the masses buy it. That will be determined not by them (or conservatives) but by where those great moveable masses go, just like with the Weimar collapse and the following democratically elected Nazi parliamentary majority. Moveable persuadable masses do listen and observe and can be convinced. I don’t think ridicule and mockery works well with them. Indeed, the Nazis were masters of mockery and ridicule of, among other things, Weimar era cultural practices that we’re very similar to many today. Should we emulate Nazi mockery?
---… stupid and dangerous ideas need to be crushed before they can do further damage.---
Absolutely. And crushed again and again and again. (Are there really any new stupid/dangerous ideas?) But again, in a democracy it is ultimately the masses who determine what ideas take precedence, for better or worse. I think when we argue with close-minded militants, we should always keep our ultimate audience, the “good burgers” who are watching and listening, in mind. I think they give extra weight to those who argue without use of mockery and ridicule.
---I have found, because the ideas promoted by progressives in almost every area are based not on objective assessment of facts, but on rank emotionalism (Feelings/Nothing more than feelings. . .)---
Feelings can be nothing more than indigestion (as Lewis said), but they are a part of our means for discerning objective truth (I shouldn’t have eaten that). Therefore, instead of mocking those who are stuck on using just feelings for their guidance we should continue to point out there are more factors in the equation.
---Since, no matter what I do, I am going to be denounced as a hateful, repressed, homophobic bigot, I would prefer to be hanged for a goat than a sheep.---
And I’d I say, “suck it up”. So they call you those things. I would argue that instead of calling them a cat and sheep molester, admit your homophobia and explain it. I haven’t had the opportunity to use this yet (but it is coming – I’m in a San Francisco Episcopal Church), but I am homophobic; I’m afraid of everyone peeling off into their homogenous little worlds. Why? Because I see it leading to desolation and above all, I fear God. I’m homophobic because I fear God; not because I fear them, but because I fear someone I believe imminently more worthy of fear than them (so much for Homer’s rule #3). I’m imagining that this might throw a few “progressives” off base; my fear is bigger than theirs!
---My daughter would tell him to "suck it up". Do you think none of us were exposed to this as children? If we can't cope with it on the playground, how do you think we'll be able to cope with it in real life?---
I have all confidence my son will be able to “cope” with it, that is, not let it squash him, thank you very much. The question is how does he respond? Does he use mockery and ridicule too? Once it’s been used for defense, what’s to stop him from using it for offense? How will he treat others who he thinks are “laughable”?
I still think ridicule and mockery, outside the enlightened use by Jesus, Elijah, St. Paul and such, is, like Homer’s Forbidden Donut, a temptation best avoided.
Posted by: Tim | Oct 9, 2007 8:45:56 PM
Everybody:
Thanks for a good discussion. On the subject of satire -- since that's what it comes down to, when it's not just nasty name-calling:
The one thing that everybody forgets is that the purpose of satire is not simply to afflict the comfortable. It is also, and at best it is principally, to comfort the afflicted. Ms. Haffner and her group have derided Christians of almost any stripe as "fundamentalists," intending not only an insult, but a slander. That has to be answered. Now sometimes it is not a man's intention to win over the opponent. Sometimes it is best to knock him over -- I don't mean best for the opponent, though it may also be best for him too, but best for the poor soul that the opponent happens to be pummeling. When Jesus strafed the Pharisees, as Stuart very cannily notes, he may well have shocked a couple of them out of their complacency and into humility -- and maybe that's what it took to do it. But the principal audience of that strafing was not the Pharisees. It was the people whom the Pharisees might have misled. Consider that if Jesus had eased into a comfortable nowhere-leading discussion with the Pharisees, he would have caused the people to lose heart; they would have said, "Perhaps the Pharisees do really know best after all."
It's a tough call, sometimes. But sometimes it is not a tough call. The Irreverend Haffner is misleading people in public, and her trashing of Scripture shows up in the blogsite of a major newspaper. Chesterton treated the atheist G. B. Shaw with great respect, and he may have been mistaken about that; he treated Dean Inge with no respect at all, and I think he was exactly right about that: Inge and his ilk did more harm to the faith than Shaw could ever have aspired to do.
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Oct 9, 2007 9:06:40 PM
"Moveable persuadable masses do listen and observe and can be convinced. I don’t think ridicule and mockery works well with them." (Tim)
I'm not entirely sure about that. For example, and as a general observation, the universities, the mainstream media, and Hollywood all ridicule and mock Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. And many in the moveable persuadable masses do listen and observe this ridicule of Christians and they unfortunately do believe that it's proper for Christians and the Christian faith to be ridiculed and mocked via this social conditioning.
But I do grant you that there does seem to be a double standard at work here. Christians can be mocked, ridiculed, and made fun of, but it's deemed very inappropriate and un-Christian-like, if a Christian were to mock, ridicule, and make fun of others.
o "I’m in a San Francisco Episcopal Church" (Tim)
My sympathies on both counts.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 9, 2007 9:37:48 PM
I just read "A Kindly Heresy" http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-06-018-v
and realize I may have the niceness disease.
Does anyone know of a traditional (fundamentalist!) Episcopalian Priest and/or Parish in or around SF? Or of an Anglican? I've looked but haven't had any luck yet.
Posted by: Tim | Oct 10, 2007 11:43:29 AM
Quote arrow marks: "SHIFT comma" and "SHIFT period." Just make sure that they point in instead of out, so you get >>this<< instead of <>. And make sure to use the preview key, of course! :-)
Posted by: Ethan C. | Oct 10, 2007 11:58:47 AM
>>>Quote arrow marks: "SHIFT comma" and "SHIFT period." Just make sure that they point in instead of out, so you get >>this<< instead of <>. And make sure to use the preview key, of course! :-)<<<
Thanks Ethan; I was doing it backwards. Not the first time!
Posted by: Tim | Oct 10, 2007 12:06:57 PM
The people who are most solemn nowadays are those who are promoting the politically correct ideas of goodness -- those who go on and on about tolerance, who give children coloring books on recycling, who think aggression in boys is horrifying. They've got a lot of people in the position of having to agree with them, and sometimes actually agreeing with them, as they are ground down over years and years of listening to this sort of thing.
I can't think of anything more refreshing than to puncture these people with ridicule. It would be like a fresh breeze to the poor souls who are intimidated into going along with them -- and I'm afraid that's a lot of people.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Oct 10, 2007 12:43:32 PM
"I can't think of anything more refreshing than to puncture these people with ridicule." (Judy Warner)
Stuart and Tony certainly agree with you. I do as well to a certain extent, but I'm thinking of something: The third-party audience witnessing the ridicule.
The object of the ridicule or satire will likely respond that the satiricist is mean-spirited, vicious, intolerant, or whatever Politically Correct smear is available. The third party audience then becomes confused. They don't want to become the object of ridicule, yet they also don't want to be considered mean-spirited, vicious, intolerant, etc... by making fun of the liberal-leftist ideologue.
Actually, some will join in the ridicule. Some will be repulsed by what they see as the nasty mean-spiritedness of the satiricist. And most will do nothing.
Posted by: Truth Unites... and Divides | Oct 10, 2007 3:42:11 PM
>>>The question is how does he respond? Does he use mockery and ridicule too? Once it’s been used for defense, what’s to stop him from using it for offense? How will he treat others who he thinks are “laughable”?<<<
God gave us tongues so we woldn't have to use our fists. Of course, sometimes, fists are wholly appropriate.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 10, 2007 3:51:23 PM
>>>If early Nazi voices had been listened to (listening to someone is not the same as signing up with them – if nothing else it is learning from thine enemies), corrections might have been made to the Versailles Treaty that could have prevented Germany’s slide into a place where everyday, persuadable Germans ended up going with the Nazi salvation program. Indeed, wasn’t Hitler’s whole program a response to the mockery and ridicule, supposed and actual, of Germany and Germans?<<<
OK, now there is an idea worth laughing out of court.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Oct 10, 2007 3:53:20 PM
You missed my point, TUAD. Many of the third parties have secretly been thinking just what you think, but have been too intimidated to say so. They will immediately see how ridiculous those people are.
Think how wonderful it would have been, when the Danish cartoonists of Mohammed were being threatened with death, if every newspaper in the west published cartoons day after day ridiculing Mohammed as well as bin Laden and the jihadists who were threatening them. A massive show of ridicule would be as powerful as ... what? What other weapon could have been used against them? And didn't you rejoice at the few newspapers who did publish the cartoons?
Posted by: Judy Warner | Oct 10, 2007 4:03:33 PM








