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November 27, 2007

Rudy and the Evangelicals

Pat Robertson's endorsement of Rudy Giuliani means evangelical Christians have "grown up" to accept a social liberal with strong national security and low-tax credentials, right? Don't bet tomorrow morning's protein shake, according to two observers of social conservatives in America.

In National Review Online, Touchstone author Brad Wilcox of the University of Virginia and Jon Shields of the University of Colorado argue the Robertson endorsement means little. Of the media speculation that the Robertson move means a new day for evangelical voting patterns, they write:

One problem with this view is that it assumes Robertson has a rank and file to lead. Robertson’s endorsement might have meant something ten years ago when he sat atop a thriving Christian Coalition. Today his endorsement means almost nothing because the Coalition has collapsed.

This reality dawned on Republican Party elites after the relatively poor turnout of evangelicals in 2000 caused President Bush to lose the popular vote. So in 2004, Republicans did not lean on Christian Right organizations to get out the evangelical voter. While the Democratic Party continued its longstanding practice of mobilizing voters through auxiliary organizations, such as unions and MoveOn, the Republican Party centralized its grassroots mobilization in its campaign headquarters in Arlington, Virginia. It did so to great effect.

Wilcox and Shields conclude:

Even if Rudy wins the nomination and employs someone as talented as Karl Rove to build his campaign machinery, it is unlikely he can command the loyalty and devotion of evangelical citizens in critical battleground states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida. While Bush is a socially conservative born-again evangelical, Rudy is thrice divorced, publicly adulterous, and a social liberal to boot.

Indeed, Giuliani’s reported glee over Robertson’s endorsement reflects a profound failure to appreciate the new realities of Republican-party politics. Old-line leaders like Robertson now have little sway among ordinary social conservatives, many of whom have become disillusioned with a party that seems largely indifferent to their deepest concerns. So, even if Giuliani succeeds in getting most leaders on the religious right to support him in a general election match-up with Hillary Clinton, his candidacy is not likely to ignite the social conservative base in ways that enabled Bush to triumph in 2004. After all, churchgoing Americans are not likely to pound the pavement next fall on behalf of a candidate whose personal conduct while holding elected office, is reminiscent of Bill Clinton. For this reason, the foot soldiers associated with the unions and MoveOn could very well win the turnout wars and help propel another Clinton to the White House.

My own thoughts on the "maturing" of evangelicalism on the abortion issue can be found here.

Regardless of whether Giuliani, Clinton, Romney, or anyone else is the next President of the United States, it is true that evangelicals have some "maturing" to do when it comes to political action. But maybe maturity means something quite different than flexibility on justice for the unborn. The next year or so may show us where we're headed for some time come. 

Posted by Russell D. Moore at 01:28 PM | Permalink

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Comments

"Rudy is thrice divorced."

Well, as of now he is still married to Wife Number Three.

Posted by: James Kabala | Nov 27, 2007 2:20:20 PM

Amen, Brother Russell.

And for all those out there worried about Hillary, she is now second in the polls in Iowa, with John Edwards nipping at her heels for that spot. Should she finish third in Iowa, her only asset, the air of invincibility, will have been lost. I don't like Obama and Edwards on policy grounds either, but I wouldn't vote for Rudy to keep either of them out of the White House.

Posted by: GL | Nov 27, 2007 2:35:03 PM

I'm from northern Pennsylvania, in the sphere of Buffalo and western NY, and I can tell you that if I have any pulse of my home area, conservatives there aren't going to like Rudy also because he is from NYC. He's big-city.

Fred Thompson is my favorite. I hope he gets the nod.

Posted by: Gina | Nov 27, 2007 2:41:55 PM

>>>Well, as of now he is still married to Wife Number Three.<<<

By my math, that means he's either ahead one divorce, a wife in the hole. Not that it matters--I'm voting for President, not saint or Pope or Messiah. I believe in limited government, low taxes and strong national defense. I believe the abortion issue should devolve to the states and be resolved democratically in the legislative branches, which means we need strict constructionist judges who will overturn the mistake of Roe and Casey, and give the issue back to the people, to whom it rightfully belonged. Are you going to get that from Giuliani, even though he's a "social liberal"? Probably, even if that isn't his intent. His other objectives require the kind of judicial environment that will reverse Roe, so be happy. You won't get a better deal under any Democrat, and no other Republican is even vaguely electable. Settle for half a loaf, rather than starve. And don't tell me four years of Hillary will be good for the soul. I still haven't gotten over eight years of Bill.

On the personal life issue, if Evangelicals won't vote for Giuliani because of his messy personal life, will they then be firing half of the Evangelical pastors in the country, whose lives are equally irregular? If they won't vote for Giuliani, who WOULD they have voted for over the last hundred years? Woodrow Wilson? The adulterous Warren G. Harding? Calvin Coolidge was cool, as was Herbert Hoover, but with FDR you get Lucy Mercer, with Harry Truman you get the Klan and the Commies, with Ike there is Kay Summersby, Jack Kennedy and LBJ were both hound dogs, Gerald Ford was a non-entity (his posthumous memoirs demonstrate that what you saw was what you got), Ronald Reagan was a divorced ACTOR, for cripes sake, Bush 41 was a nebbish of indifferent religious beliefs, Bill Clinton--well what can one say?--Bush 43, whom Evangelicals dislike as much as most other people do. Essentially, then, Evangelicals really should not have voted at all since the last time William Jennings Bryan was on the stump. Either way, I don't think they show the requisite maturity to even vote at all.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 27, 2007 2:42:06 PM

>>>I don't like Obama and Edwards on policy grounds either, but I wouldn't vote for Rudy to keep either of them out of the White House.<<<

Then you deserve what you get. But, please, remember--I don't deserve what you get.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 27, 2007 2:43:38 PM

Then you deserve what you get. But, please, remember--I don't deserve what you get.

Well, maybe you will deserve what you get, that is, if you vote for Rudy in the Republican primary knowing that there are *a lot* of folks like me who would support Mitt or Fred or Mike, but will not support Rudy, in the general election. And making folks like you think about that is why we are telling you now what we will do if Rudy gets the nod.

Posted by: GL | Nov 27, 2007 2:48:53 PM

Stuart,

We don't expect perfection, but we expect that one will learn from one's past sins and mistakes and we expect him not to support a woman's "right" to kill her unborn children or for two people of the same sex to have their relationship in anyway sanctioned by the state.

Your catalog of sinners from the past century misses the point, but I'll rise to your bait. In the last 100 years, I would have voted TR in 1912 and Charles Evans Hughes in 1916. I don't know enough about Cox to decide if I would have voted for him, but had I known what a scoundrel Harding was, I would not have voted for him. I would not have voted for FDR, but like my grandfathers, would have proudly stood by Hoover in 1932, Landis in 1936, Wilkie in 1940 and Dewey in 1944. As to Truman, he once fired someone in his administration when he learned of his having an affair, saying that if a man's wife could trust that man, why should he. Having said that, I likely would have voted for Dewey in 1948, though I believe HST was a great President. The exact relationship of Ike with Kay Summersby is disputed, though I admit it doesn't look good. I would not have voted for JFK or LBJ. And, had I recognized Nixon's personality flaws at the time (I was not born in 1960 and was only seven in 1968), I would not have voted for him either. In 1976, while still a foolish teenager, I supported Carter. I repented on that error in judgment when I was first able to vote in 1980. Reagan's divorce was years behind him and he did not seek it. I know of no evidence that he was an adulterer. I voted for Bush 41 in 1988 and 1992 and knew enough about Bill even in 1992 not to vote for him. I voted for Bush 43 in 2000 and 2004, but supported McCain for the nod in the 2000 and still regret that he has not been President during the past several years. That about covers it, I think.

Posted by: GL | Nov 27, 2007 3:03:26 PM

That should have read: "As to Truman, he once fired someone in his administration when he learned of his having an affair, saying that if a man's wife could *not* trust that man, why should he?"

Posted by: GL | Nov 27, 2007 3:16:31 PM

>>Well, maybe you will deserve what you get, that is, if you vote for Rudy in the Republican primary knowing that there are *a lot* of folks like me who would support Mitt or Fred or Mike, but will not support Rudy, in the general election.

Fair enough, but:

>>And making folks like you think about that is why we are telling you now what we will do if Rudy gets the nod.

This line makes it sound less like a principled position than a pouty denial of prudentiality in politics.

Posted by: DGP | Nov 27, 2007 3:26:47 PM

This line makes it sound less like a principled position than a pouty denial of prudentiality in politics.

No, it is just telling everyone what we will do so that they can act with that information in mind. Thus, you can either act on that or deny "prudentiality in politics" in your own actions. Politics ain't softball.

Posted by: GL | Nov 27, 2007 3:30:38 PM

no other Republican is even vaguely electable

Six months being an eternity in politics, there is no way you can divine this right now.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 27, 2007 3:35:06 PM

Summersby and Ike? Unless you're priviledged to some information not available in the public record, I don't think so.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 27, 2007 3:38:09 PM

no other Republican is even vaguely electable

Six months being an eternity in politics, there is no way you can divine this right now.

Not only that, but Rudy is not "even vaguely electable" if Evangelicals won't vote for him and, all the foot stomping by his supporters isn't going to change that.

Posted by: GL | Nov 27, 2007 4:07:16 PM

Ron Paul, anyone?

Posted by: Kirk | Nov 27, 2007 4:16:51 PM

Only in my nightmares...

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 27, 2007 5:06:36 PM

>On the personal life issue, if Evangelicals won't vote for Giuliani because of his messy personal life, will they then be firing half of the Evangelical pastors in the country, whose lives are equally irregular?

I'm guessing that half of evangelical pastors don't have multiple divorces or make public appearances in women's clothing. Perhaps Byzantine Catholic clergy go for the latter?

Posted by: David Gray | Nov 27, 2007 5:32:22 PM

MY vote goes to GL!!!

Posted by: James A. Altena | Nov 27, 2007 5:48:51 PM

Nah David,
Us Anglicans have cornered the market on liturgy queens. ("I feel pretty! I feel pretty!" :-)

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 27, 2007 5:57:47 PM

>>Thus, you can either act on that or deny "prudentiality in politics" in your own actions. Politics ain't softball.

Good point, but talk of "making people" do things still sounds petulant to me.

Posted by: DGP | Nov 27, 2007 7:16:58 PM

GL clearly meant "make" in the sense of "cause", not in the sense of "force".

Posted by: James A. Altena | Nov 27, 2007 8:16:27 PM

You would think that Ron Paul would be the no-brainer choice among conservative evangelicals but apparently support for the war trumps everything. Its truly sad that Christians would compromise on abortion just so they can prolong a war. Ron Paul is the only candidate supporting a foreign policy that could even remotely be described as Christian. I just don't get it.

Posted by: RLS | Nov 28, 2007 1:33:44 AM

"Ron Paul is the only candidate supporting a foreign policy that could even remotely be described as Christian. I just don't get it."

That's quite a stretch, RLS, and you'll have to unpack that claim. For my part, I (as a conservative) find much of Ron Paul's libertarianism incompatible with Christianity on many levels.

Philadelphia Inquirer Sunday columnist Jonathan Last recently had a tart but dead-on assessment of Ron Paul and his strange coterie of supporters:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/11541756.html

Posted by: James A. Altena | Nov 28, 2007 3:00:49 AM

For my part, I (as a conservative) find much of Ron Paul's libertarianism incompatible with Christianity on many levels.

Ditto. Some of libertarianism is compatible with conservatism, but much of it is antithetical to it and is actually hostile to a Christian world view. Many Americans don't understand the profound differences between conservatism and libertarianism and many who espouse the latter wrongly believe that they are conservatives. I think I'll pass on Paul.

Posted by: GL | Nov 28, 2007 3:42:08 AM

>>>Summersby and Ike? Unless you're priviledged to some information not available in the public record, I don't think so.<<<

According to Rick Atkinson's latest book on the war in the Med, when Ike came home on leave in Christmas 1943, he once inadvertently called Mamie "Kay". If I were ever to make an analogous error, I would not be able to continue my glorious career afterwards.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 28, 2007 4:54:16 AM

>>>We don't expect perfection, but we expect that one will learn from one's past sins and mistakes and we expect him not to support a woman's "right" to kill her unborn children or for two people of the same sex to have their relationship in anyway sanctioned by the state.<<<

I'm not so much interested in what a candidates believes personally, but what he will DO once in office. A conservative view of government's role is worth more to me than great moral rectitude in a person who thinks government is the solution (because most problems begin as solutions).

>>>Not only that, but Rudy is not "even vaguely electable" if Evangelicals won't vote for him and, all the foot stomping by his supporters isn't going to change that.<<<

Fortunately, it looks like they actually WILL vote for him, as will most conservatives, because the "life issues" turn out to be neither primary nor secondary, but tertiary among most of these voters, for the simple reason that they know there is little the President can do under the present legal regime, so they must first ensure that courts are reformed first. Giuliani will reform the courts. No Democrat--whether Clinton, Edwards or Obama--will do so. Nor will they take even a tentative step in the direction that either social or economic conservatives would consider desirable.

From somebody else:

>>>You would think that Ron Paul would be the no-brainer choice among conservative evangelicals but apparently support for the war trumps everything. Its truly sad that Christians would compromise on abortion just so they can prolong a war. Ron Paul is the only candidate supporting a foreign policy that could even remotely be described as Christian. I just don't get it.<<<

This is just so bizarre that one does not know where to begin, but if you think Ron Paul has a "Christian" foreign policy, then you probably also believe in those UFO Dennis Kucinich saw.

>>>Ditto. Some of libertarianism is compatible with conservatism, but much of it is antithetical to it and is actually hostile to a Christian world view. Many Americans don't understand the profound differences between conservatism and libertarianism and many who espouse the latter wrongly believe that they are conservatives. I think I'll pass on Paul.<<<

There can be, and in fact is, a Christian libertarian philosophy, but Ron Paul ain't it.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 28, 2007 5:40:14 AM

Stuart,
Actually, Ike *twice* called her Kay on that visit. (And she told him not to come back again until he won the war.) Atkinson also wrote that Ike denied--when asked directly by his wife in a letter--if anything was going on (presumably sexual) between him and Summersby.

It isn't hard to imagine how this happens. The only female around gets to be the locus of attention of the lonely guy--but that doesn't mean adultery was involved.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 28, 2007 7:21:17 AM

Stuart and James, why don't you explain why your respective choices of candidate are better for a Christian conservative to vote for so I can understand exactly what you two gentlemen mean by "Christian". If it runs along the same lines of Pat Robertson's thinking, I doubt we would ever see eye to eye on anything we call Christian.

Posted by: RLS | Nov 28, 2007 8:52:07 AM

We have a perfect ruler, He just isn't running in this election. Eventually, though, He'll show up and be "voted" in by acclamation...except by certain folks who are in for a world of hurt.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 28, 2007 9:00:36 AM

Indeed, Gene. He is the Elector.

Posted by: GL | Nov 28, 2007 10:14:45 AM

There isn't really much policy difference between the major parties on abortion and gay rights in any case, except in terms of lip service, public perception, and manipulation of the fundamentalist base. If Rudy wins the primaries, those two moral issues will be removed from the smorgasbord, leaving voters to focus on other ethical questions such as torture, war, universal health care, and the environment.

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 28, 2007 10:26:28 AM

We shall see, Stuart.

Posted by: GL | Nov 28, 2007 10:29:18 AM

Rom Paul is probably our *human* last best hope for restoring the Republic.

However, he comes across as emotionally unstable on TV. That is a significant concern. The same problem happened with Perot (who was not a Constitutionalist), but nonetheless a threat to the nomenklatura)

His unwillingness to use current assumed presidential powers to set things to rights before turning them back to the several States is probably what has otherwise cut his support, along with the supreme lack of awareness of him among Heartlanders, his logical supporters.

I disagree with him on prudential matters, such as the situation in south-west Asia. But in terms of broad principles, he and Alan Keyes are, so far as I know, the only ones who would not be perjuring themselves when they took their presidential oaths.

He does however, have the ability to attract both the libertarian left and Constitutional conservatives, over and against Democrat and RINO State totalists. This means that he actually is electable, if his supporters can manage to not fall into a dogfight before he is elected.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 28, 2007 11:04:17 AM

Francesca, on the contrary, it would mean that a third party would replace the GOP, the same way that the Republicans replaced the Whigs.

Most Americans aren't desiring of a Chavezista worker's death trap.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 28, 2007 11:07:01 AM

"As to Truman, he once fired someone in his administration when he learned of his having an affair, saying that if a man's wife could *not* trust that man, why should he?"
If one included faithfulness to a fiance or girlfriend in this standard, or used Our Lord's standard for fornication, President Truman might have found himself in charge of a rather small military. When I was stationed in Germany in the 1970s, some local folks made it clear to me that the resentment against America in Europe and Asia had as much to do with all the children we left behind after the war as with ill-mannered tourists--a million each in France, Germany, Japan, Italy and the UK by some estimates. The "Greatest Generation" made America the leading sperm exporting nation in the history of the world.

Posted by: Neil Gussman | Nov 28, 2007 1:29:28 PM

Hey Neil,
I'm not excusing it, but I think the strange pressures of wartime must play havoc with one's reproductive drives. Like Stuart, I'm reading Atkinson's history of the campaign in the Mediterranean. There was an astounding level (to me) of fornication. The rates of gonorrhea were extaordinarily high and it mentions that 70% of these were resistant to the sulfa drugs then currently in use. Each case debilitated a soldier for an average of ten days. It was only the introduction of the new-to-mass-production penicillin that "solved" the problem. (Churchill did consider authorizing the use of the drug for only non-venereal diseases. At least, I think it was Churchill.)

Hordes of soldiers arriving in Naples from the awful fronts of Anzio and Cassino were full of an oft-expressed desire for the Buffett Elysium of getting drunk and getting laid. And there were many impoverished, in-danger-of-starving Italian women who were happy to oblige them (for a fee). This isn't to say that everyone did this, but there were a lot who did. My limited reading of battles of other times tell me that this is not an uncommon phenomenon. What the Russians did when they got to Berlin makes this pale in comparison, though.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 28, 2007 2:11:20 PM

Rudy is by far the best of the Democratic candidates for President. If he were to become the Republican nominee - which my state will do its best to prevent! - we'd effectively have a one-party Presidential race.

He doesn't actually hate conservatives, which certainly makes him stand out from the other Democrats in the race. He's very law-and-order - for a Democrat; has an unusual, personal-experience-based level of national security sanity - for a Democrat; and has made promises to give us good judges, which I might at least try to believe - from a Republican. But New York City elected this man Mayor - I'm pretty sure they must have seen through his claim to be a Republican, too.

I appreciate the way he emphasizes the values he does share with conservative voters, and does not generally pretend to share the rest of our worldview; he is a genial and forthright foe, the sort one can make temporary coalitions with when it's absolutely necessary. It most certainly will not be absolutely necessary until after the primaries, if ever.

Posted by: Joe Long | Nov 28, 2007 2:54:42 PM

We've been this way before, but I would like an update, please, on whom all of you pundits do support, since you are so articulate about whom you don't support. When the time comes we will have to vote for somebody, not against somebody.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 28, 2007 3:17:37 PM

Mostly, Judy, I do vote against people. (The Robert Heinlein rule: "When in doubt, ask the advice of the nearest well-meaning idiot, and cancel out HIS vote.") I will continue to weigh which is the "rightmost electable candidate" possibly up until the day of the SC primaries. Huckabee would make a good protest vote to try to help swing the winning candidate to the right, but at the moment I'm still Romney-leaning. I think, perhaps, if he owes his election to conservatives, he will "stay bought" and promote our policies.

Posted by: Joe Long | Nov 28, 2007 3:31:56 PM

Ron Paul... Neo-nazi, Doctrinaire Libertarians, and L'Abrialumn's ;-) support notwithstanding. After him, Huckabee is acceptable (similar to the way Dubya was: I'd hold my nose, but wouldn't have to go to confession). (BTW, I do hope you've all seen Huck's Chuck Norris commercial... it is a hoot!) I doubt Keyes will be on my ballot in NJ, but I'd vote for him.

The GOP nominee will be electable inherently, by virtue of being the GOP nominee. The trouble is only getting there. I recall quite plausible claims about the in-electability of a certain Arkansas' governor well into early 1992.

And, yes, I do believe 4 years of Hillary (and I'm absolutely convinced it would be only 4 years) would be better than 4 or 8 years of Rudy, even if the latter did not entail the loss of pro-life representation among the Big Two (which, of course, it would). The only possible upside to a Giuliani presidency would be a possible opening up of the Dems to pro-life voters, which was the natural (i.e., populist) state of things well into the 70s.

Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 28, 2007 3:47:26 PM

I forgot Keyes - an excellent "protest vote", probably; lost track of him since last election, and I'd have to see his war policy.

Ron Paul is a fine American, but his lack of commitment to the counter-jihad is a dealbreaker for me. If you don't comprehend that we're locked in a non-elective struggle against the Saracens, I can't vote for you as Commander-in-Chief. Give the man a cabinet post (other than SecDef) - with luck he'd abolish his department.

Posted by: Joe Long | Nov 28, 2007 4:14:06 PM

The fact that more than one person here endorses Keyes shocks me. He is a prime example of the fact that a candidate does not equal the sum of the positions he espouses. Keyes is a flake and has had many ethical problems. In addition he has never held office and has not performed well in the positions he has had running things.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 28, 2007 4:14:44 PM

Keyes is an excellent speaker, but I think Judy is right--he'd be hopeless in a leadership position. Other than that, Joe sums up my thoughts nicely.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 28, 2007 4:25:20 PM

I don't see principles when I look at Romney, I see expediency. When I look at Hizzoner, I see narcisism and a will-to-power (though I don't suppose you could ever completely escape these with politicians). In many cases I think either one might be relied upon to do the right thing (for the wrong reasons, but I'd be okay with that if it were lucky enough to happen). Huckabee looks intriguing, but I don't feel I know enough about him, yet. McCain? He's such a weird mix of steadfast and scolding.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Nov 28, 2007 4:32:47 PM

In the Cold War, we faced an enemy whose military was roughly on par with our own, who alone possessed a nuclear arsenal capable of rendering the earth uninhabitable for mammalian life for tens of thousands of years. We won. In fact, we won easily. And ignoring proxy wars, and a couple of ill-advised and badly measured "interventions", hardly a shot was fired.

In contrast, the idea that we are somehow locked in an existential struggle with Jihadists is really laughable, if it weren't for the contempt that this (over)reaction has bred for us precisely among would-be sympathizers of such enemies. Terrorism works not because it is per se an effective military strategy, but because it causes terror, and radicalizes whole populations as a result--terror that has principally motivated Dubya's conversion to a full-fledged Wilsonian, and apparently a good number of Mere Commenters... who really should know better.

But what about 9/11? Okay, Al Qaeda stepped up to the plate 4 times that day, hit three out of the park, and added a single. And the number of American dead? About as many as died in US traffic accidents in the month of September 2001. And odds are, given some presumed vigilance of police, security, and intelligence agencies, something like that won't happen again--the supremely accurate and devastating terror strikes, that is... traffic accidents are unfortunately a much more persistent problem.

In other words, Al Qaeda took their best shot, and that's all they got: in moral terms, an atrocity; but in economic terms, a mosquito bite; in military terms, exactly nothing. But in political terms, exactly the knee-jerk, overreaction they were looking for: Renewed attempts at western hegemony in the Middle East, fuel for their fire. We need to get the frack out of the Middle East, esp. Saudi Arabia, repudiate the Carter doctrine, and stop trying to make the world safe for democracy. The world will be safe for democracy when it's darn good-n-ready.

Ron Paul is running (and the only major party candidate running) with Bush XLIII's 2000 foreign policy position, which was supposed to have been humbler than his predecessor's. Bush took the authentically conservative position back then. Ron Paul, alone, takes it now.

Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 28, 2007 4:45:03 PM

Judy, please substantiate your charges.

Keyes was an ambassador, btw.

I smell dirty tricks in the "neo-nazi" charges regarding Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a Constitutionhalist, NOT a Libertarian! and neo - national socialists are hardly in agreement with Constitutionally-limited government.

I find it disturbing that so many on MC find the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to be a hoot. Please go somewhere else in the Anglosphere (lots of very nice places) and leave America for the Americans. Leave us somewhere for this experiment in Christian-modeled government

Romney's record is that of a social liberal/leftist.

A Ron Paul/Alan Keyes ticket would be a dream,and would appeal not only to the GOP Constitutionalist and Declarationist base, but also to many on the Dem's plantation. But party politics are such that it wouldn't happen. A RINO would have to be the veep.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 28, 2007 5:42:52 PM

>>>And ignoring proxy wars, and a couple of ill-advised and badly measured "interventions", hardly a shot was fired.<<<

As Marion Barry once said, "If you overlook all the killin's, DC is a pretty safe place to live".

And as Colin Gray once said, "If they're shooting at me, it's high intensity".

If you add up all the casualties of those "proxy wars", you would get a number somewhere in the vicinity of five million people, but since most of them were brown or yellow, I suppose they don't count.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 28, 2007 6:14:49 PM

RLS,

On the contrary -- since, you first introduced the claim that Ron Paul is the only candidate to hold a Christian foreign policy position, you are obligated to provide a statement of your position first before demanding one from anyone else.

Judy,

As I've already indicated, of the current candidates I would support Huckabee. I possibly may agree more with another candidate on a greater number of political positions, but I do agree with him on the issues most important to me, and I also think moral character is important. Huckabee appears to me to be the candidate with the most personal integrity.

Leaving aside lesser candidates such as Paul [a crank] and Keyes (the conservative counterpart to Jesse Jackson), I'd be able to vote for either McCain or Romney with some reservations. I simply cannot see voting for Giuliani. [And every time Stuart posts another jeremiad on the topic he only makes that conviction more firm. :-)]

Labrialumn,

"I find it disturbing that so many on MC find the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to be a hoot."

Prove objectively -- do not just assert -- that others here regard the Declaration and Constitution "to be a hoot." And what, pray tell, are your qualifications to set yourself up here as an authoritative interpreter and arbiter of the Constitution? Care to test your grasp of constitutional law and history against e.g. our resident legal scholar GL? Or do you just write him (and anyone else) off a priori as deluded or corrupt because he doesn't agree with you?

But then, I don't expect either logical argument or concrete evidence from someone who considers only people who agree with him to be genuine Americans, and tells anyone who disagrees with him to leave the country. The next step, of course, is for you to proclaim that anyone on MC who doesn't agree with your pet theological positions isn't a Christian and should get out of the Church.

Posted by: James A. Altena | Nov 28, 2007 6:24:58 PM

James,

I think the notion that US hegemony,especially via the military, should be as limited as possible. Chesterton once remarked that "the only defensible war is a war of defense". The problem is I rarely meet an evangelical or fundamentalist who has met a war he or she doesn't like so I see that what they would mean by a Christian ruler is very different from what I would mean. I think Paul is undeniably a man of integrity in his personal and public life and that he does actually consider the Golden Rule a fairly good standard to live by where foreign policy is concerned.

Once again I would argue that this is self-evident so I am quite amazed when a Christian conservative would rather taken a pro-choice, anti-second amendment candidate in the pay of large lobbying groups simply because he supports a war no Christian should have supported in the first place.

Posted by: RLS | Nov 28, 2007 8:19:32 PM

If you add up all the casualties of those "proxy wars", you would get a number somewhere in the vicinity of five million people, but since most of them were brown or yellow, I suppose they don't count.

No, Stuart. Of course they count. But it does call into question the prudence of all those proxy wars in the first place, hmmm?

Just to be clear, Labri, I support Ron Paul and do not consider him a neo-nazi. Nor in fact do I consider him (really) a libertarian. He just happens to get support from both for his principled anti-centralist views, which derive from a fair reading of the 10th Ammendment--a reading regarded perhaps as quaint by our centralist establishment betters, but a reading that I comports quite well with the principle of subsidiarity, which is a cornerstone of Catholic social teaching...

I won't attempt to propose a Christian (or Catholic) foreign policy, primarily because I don't believe that a particular one exists. But going to war only in the case of last resort would certainly be a part of any sensible (and in that sense Christian) view.

James, tho' you do express a sublime degree of sensibility in your opposition to Giuliani, you join a myriad of commentators here and elsewhere who dismiss Ron Paul with the mere wave of the hand and without argument of any sort. A crank? Let's unpack that a bit... Because he believes matters of common law (abortion, drugs, prostitution, gambling) are best resolved at the state or local level? (Subsidiarity anyone?) Because he believes the federal government could possibly somehow just eek by on its 2001 revenues (and thus eliminate any need today for federal income taxes)? Why?

Ronald Reagan promised to eliminate the Federal Dept of Education, which had at the time only been recently (and controversially) created. He reneged on that promise. Ron Paul might actually do it. That makes him a "crank"?!

I think we are all well aware how the Commerce Clause, inter alia, has been used to render the 10th ammendment utterly moot. But I think we are also all well aware, as card-carrying conservatives, how such a reading of the constitution has eroded the voice of the people, their liberties, and the voices of the several states; and how such has led to the rise of the nanny-state, the infantilization of state and local governments (to say nothing of the people), unbridled federal growth (spending and debt).

Finally, while I do not consider the Declaration of Independence to be a "hoot" per se, I deem it to be first, non-binding; second, a noble lie at best; and thirdly, dangerously poisoned by enlightenment rationalism--a document which, if taken seriously, might very well lead to the lifestyle libertinism that has in fact quickly eroded anything that might resemble Christian culture in America. The Constitution, OTOH, is made of quite different, more stable stuff.

Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 28, 2007 8:20:48 PM

Clark Carlton has endorsed Ron Paul--

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/carlton1.html

Posted by: Kirk | Nov 28, 2007 9:45:05 PM

Abolishing the Department of Education makes good sense. I'm all for it.

But Ron Paul advocates abolishing the Federal Reserve and restoring the Gold Standard. This is sheer idiocy and shows he has not the faintest clue about economics. I am not going to seriously consider for president a candidate who fetishizes a soft yellow metal and whose policies would destroy the US economy if implemented.

Posted by: Matthias | Nov 28, 2007 9:51:17 PM

Economics has never been my strongest suit. Paul's views on the Federal Reserve and gold trouble me, but I don't know enough to dismiss them out of hand. Could someone direct me to a good book or article that analyzes the issue of the gold standard? I would prefer one that gives a fair hearing to both sides. (Terms like "idiocy" and "fetishizing" may prove deserved in the end, but I want to make up my own mind.)

Posted by: James Kabala | Nov 28, 2007 10:00:16 PM

Gene,
Of course you are correct. I was mostly mentioning it because Harry Truman was much too shrewd a man to be commander in chief of a world conquering army and come up through the rough and tumble of Missouri politics and then end someone's career for adultery. There was something else going on. I think when quoting politicians we must lean toward being wise as serpents rather than innocent as doves.
Neil

Posted by: Neil Gussman | Nov 28, 2007 10:27:07 PM

Labrialum,

A trusted friend of mine worked closely with Alan Keyes, as a fundraiser. Keyes didn't pay his bill, and when my friend asked him for the money, Keyes accused him of being a racist.

When Keyes was president of Citizens Against Government Waste he got in trouble for harassing women.

When Keyes ran for Senate in Maryland in the 1980s, he took $8,000 a month out of his campaign funds to live on, and objected when people who had given him money questioned this.

This story from 1999 gives the flavor of the man. He was indeed an ambassador and has a Ph.D., but those things are no bar to bad character and poor judgment.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 28, 2007 10:36:56 PM

>>>No, Stuart. Of course they count. But it does call into question the prudence of all those proxy wars in the first place, hmmm?<<<

One must view them within the context of the Cold War and ask what the outcome would have been had Soviet military aggression and adventurism--whether direct or by proxy--had not been opposed by the United States (sometimes assisted by the rest of the Free World). In my body count, for instance, I did not include those killed by Communist regimes after these took power. So one would have to add some 40 million killed by Communist China after 1949, a million or so Eastern Europeans by the USSR after 1945, a couple of million killed in Cambodia after 1975, and so on. If left to its own devices, Communism would not have been contained but would have spread throughout the world, bringing misery in its wake. By pushing back against Communist efforts to break out of their cordon sanitaire, the United States created the conditions which led, eventually, to the collapse of the USSR and its empire. But a Soviet Union supported by a conquered (or more likely Finlandized) Western Europe, Asia and Africa could have continued indefinitely, leaving the United States isolated and besieged, and most of the world's people living in abject misery.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 5:13:32 AM

>>>Ronald Reagan promised to eliminate the Federal Dept of Education, which had at the time only been recently (and controversially) created. He reneged on that promise. Ron Paul might actually do it. That makes him a "crank"?!<<<

Do you civics homework. A President alone cannot abolish a cabinet office, or even defund one. He needs the cooperation of two other branches of government over which he has no real control.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 5:15:16 AM

"to be a hoot" was a quote of one of you.

James,
I can read.
I have read the Declaration, the Constitution, The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, numerous diary entries and Lex, Rex. Have you? They weren't written for lawyers, but for the People. A Constitutional Law Scholar probably isn't going to agree with the founders that these were covenantal, rather than mutating, documents.

I was cranky with people calling the one candidate who supports the Constitution to be a flake because he supports the Constitution. I think you were even more cranky in response. No?

Steve,
The Declaration is based, even at times plagiarized from, Rev. Samuel Rutherford's Lex, Rex of 1644. It is not tainted by endarkenment rationalism (though Locke "translated" it into endarkenment terms in a sort of "seeker-sensitive" way). It is in fact Presbyterian, which did not spring up out of nowhere, but out of the tradition of political thought including such Roman Catholics as Augustine, de Bracton, du Plessy de Mornay, the Archibishop of York in 1215, etc. It -is- binding, it is the only legitimation for these united States to be independent of the Crown, without which we ought to bend the knee to Elizabeth II, and it is the creedal statement for this Republic, as Alastair Cooke and others more scholarly than he, have noted.

Matthias, abolishing the federal reserve and returning to specie is in fact the Constitution. It is not just a good idea, it is the Law. It is not idiocy, it is also Biblical law. Now if you want to call God an idiot, that is your business, but you'll have to discuss that with Him.

Judy, I did not know those things, and apart from your trusted friend, I am skeptical to the other claims. The Establishment (even here!) is opposed to the American Republic preferring a more European Caesarist totalism (which ought not be present here of all places) Such people are threatened that people like Keyes and Paul might rouse the people to defend the Republic against tyrants.

BTW,Paul is not against the war against the Jihad. He does favor such Constitutional things as an actual Congressional declaration of war (we -aren't- at war(!)) and thinks that letters of marque and reprisal are the correct legal way to deal with non-State actors, and I think he has an argument there.
Stuart, and communism yet spreads, in Brazil, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, inland Columbia, Ottawa, DNC, DC, EU, etc.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 29, 2007 8:22:37 AM

I clearly need my breakfast. I know perfectly well that it is 'br', not 'b'. Argh. Well, I've just closed the tag.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 29, 2007 8:26:24 AM

Well, I closed it in HTML. What's the code in typepad?

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 29, 2007 8:27:51 AM

I'm not sure that Truman story is even true. I remember in McCullough's book he wrote to his wife or in his diary when he was still a county commissioner or something like that he didn't trust one of his colleague because a man not true to his wife couldn't be trusted in other things, but I don't recall him actually firing anyone over such an issue.

Posted by: James Kabala | Nov 29, 2007 8:31:30 AM

Judy,
The link to the Salon article was quite enlightening.

The author was strongly opposed to Keyes' Declaration and Christian -beliefs=. That was the reason for the belittling attack piece.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 29, 2007 8:33:12 AM

Do you civics homework. A President alone cannot abolish a cabinet office...

Neither can a President alone raise or lower taxes, increase or decrease defense spending, create national health care programs, put justices on the Supreme Court, outlaw or mandate gay marriage, or do 98% of the other things that presidential candidates routinely promise to do. The fact that we all routinely gloss over this fact when discussing the merits of their proposals doesn't mean we're ignorant of basic civics.

Posted by: Matthias | Nov 29, 2007 9:00:47 AM

Longstringof
various
closures
tostrongtext(hopefully)...

Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 29, 2007 9:02:44 AM

That was the third , BTW...

Ummm, well Labri, I guess we disagree on the meaning of "binding". As far as I'm concerned, the American Revolution was rather trumped up anyway, and I'd be perfectly happy to live, to have lived, in the British Commonwealth. The American Revolution after all was a rebellion against the most liberal (in the 18th century sense) government the world had ever known. Thankfully, we did not go the way of France. And for that perhaps we can thank Presbyterians. At any rate, no matter: We agree on Ron Paul. He does make for strange bedfellows.

Matthias, I think most here understand that a president cannot unilaterally abolish federal departments or unilaterally do much of anything else (except, alas these days declare war-like actions). And no candidate understands constitutional limitations better than Rep. Paul. But presidents do set directions and submit budgets. Now if a budget just happened to come to Congress with zero funding for the FDA, the IRS, the Dept of Agriculture, the Dept of Labor, the Dept of Educ..., well wouldn't that be a decent starting point for negotiations with the legislative branch? After all, the human race, and even the ol' USA got along pretty well without these for most of her history.

Subsidiarity!

Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 29, 2007 9:27:12 AM

James Kabala,

That may be the story I was thinking of. Thanks for the clarification.

Judy,

In order of preference:

  1. Fred Thompson
  2. Mike Huckabee
  3. Mitt Romney
  4. John McCain

Posted by: GL | Nov 29, 2007 9:32:43 AM

Steve Nicoloso | Nov 29, 2007 9:27:12 AM: "Subsidiarity!"

Ditto. That is precisely the stance I take when addressing issues, what is the lowest possible level at which the issue can be effectively addressed. It seldom is at the federal level save for national defense, international relations and securing the basic rights which the First Congress and the original states secured in the Bill of Rights and the Reconstruction Congress and states secured in the post-Civil War Amendments. As to the latter, however, the federal courts, and most especially the Supreme Court, have misused the Bill of Rights and the post-Civil War Amendments to undermine much of the rest of the Constitution.

Posted by: GL | Nov 29, 2007 9:38:59 AM

"Thankfully, we did not go the way of France. And for that perhaps we can thank Presbyterians."

You're welcome.

Just to clarify, I called Huckabee - and Keyes - good "protest votes", which are the votes I cast for no-hopers when I'm particularly disgusted and wish only to have registered my annoyance with the frontrunners - and to make clear that my annoyance came from the RIGHT. So, Judy, I hardly "endorse" either, and would have to know much more about either before I knocked on doors or put on the bumper sticker...

And I can't help but think Romney's opportunist, too - but if he is a shrewd opportunist, and will follow through on a "deal" with conservatives, I can live with that. Of course his record is largely socialist; he was an opportunist in Massachussetts. A national-level Republican opportunist must trim his sails to fit a very different wind, and he seems to be doing so in a way that Giuliani isn't.

Posted by: Joe Long | Nov 29, 2007 10:43:33 AM

That's good logic, Labrialum. If you like Keyes and someone says something unfavorable about him, it must be because he's threatened by Keyes. I would point out that what Jake Tapper says is very much in line with the experience of my friend: calling people racists is Keyes's MO. In your system it is also impossible that Keyes could actually do anything wrong, since any accusation is by definition made only for bad motives.

I used to like Keyes, and I campaigned for him the first time he ran for Senate in Maryland. So did a lot of other conservatives I knew. By the second time around we had become disillusioned because we could look past his oratory. But apparently you can't.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 29, 2007 12:34:23 PM

>>>He does favor such Constitutional things as an actual Congressional declaration of war <<<

Against whom? The entire concept of "declaration of war" presupposes the nation-state system (or at least some recognizable nexus of sovereignty). But jihadis and other terrorists do not work within the confines of the nation-state system. One could, I suppose, declare war on states which provide support for terrorists, but plausible deniability is part of the game, so unless one falls into the Taliban trap of being seen to support terrorists, as opposed to being merely suspected of supporting terrorists, a declaration of war seems a non-starter. Moreover, by declaring war against specific terrorists or terror organization, one is in effect recognizing and legitimizing them. That terrorists are per se outside the rule of law means that the formalities one uses against nation-states cannot and should not be applied. Rather, terrorists are in a literal sense, "outlaws"--they are outside the law and can (and should) be hunted down like wild animals.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 12:36:33 PM

>>>Neither can a President alone raise or lower taxes, increase or decrease defense spending, create national health care programs, put justices on the Supreme Court, outlaw or mandate gay marriage, or do 98% of the other things that presidential candidates routinely promise to do. The fact that we all routinely gloss over this fact when discussing the merits of their proposals doesn't mean we're ignorant of basic civics.<<<

True. but I think that a large proportion of the electorate really does believe the President can do things like abolish the Department of Education, cut taxes, and outlaw abortion. In fact, the best he can do is try to lead the legislature to enact his program, but usually he has to settle for half a loaf at best. Ronald Reagan really did want to abolish the Department of Education, but in the great scheme of things this was not central to his program, and when it became apparent that there was no consensus for that move, he dropped it. Politics is the art of the possible, and the problem with an ideologue as president is the insistence on trying to do the impossible once it becomes self-evidently impossible. Those who vote for Ron Paul because he makes right noises need to take a reality check: is the man writing a check he can't possibly cash? Seems likely. I'll stick with the guy who has a few big objectives and relatively modest goals over someone who promises to enact a revolution overnight. The U.S. did not get into its present situation overnight, and it will not escape that situation overnight, either.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 12:55:57 PM

Joe Long,

I can proudly lay claim to an direct ancestor and his brother-in-law (the brother of his wife, also a direct ancestor), who voted against ratification of the Constitution at the first North Carolina Ratification Convention. Being anti-federalists, they demanded the Bill of Rights. Being good Presbyterians and understanding the depravity of men, they also wanted a provision limiting terms. Ted Kennedy is Exhibit A for why it is a tragedy that they failed in that effort.

Posted by: GL | Nov 29, 2007 1:23:43 PM

"Being good Presbyterians and understanding the depravity of men, they also wanted a provision limiting terms..."

Yes, Calvinists provided a disproportionate share of Revolutionary War manpower, and a disproportionate amount (I think) of the good sense that went into making the American government an unwieldy instrument for tyrants. Personally my favorite bit of the Bill of Rights is "Congress shall make no law..." - although I do understand that, for purely practical reasons, we couldn't just put a period after those wonderful five words!

A member of Parliament said that "Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson" - Jim Webb provides that quote and some other beauties, in his "Born Fighting", a fine work.

And yes, most Americans act like we're electing a King every four years, upon whom all legislation depends and whose slightest whim might turn us into a socialist republic in an eyeblink, or lead us at last to the tearless Alabaster Cities of "America the Beautiful". Some really believe this to be true - the left half of the Bell Curve is critical in elections - and I think almost everyone who knows better, still tends to subconsciously regard the President as far more powerful than he is - myself included.

Really he's a "public servant" - just the head butler to the national household, whom we can fire after his four-year probationary period, and who won't be around longer than eight in any case (unless we elect his wife later). But it is, indeed, SO hard to get good help these days...

Posted by: Joe Long | Nov 29, 2007 1:40:34 PM

>>>The entire concept of "declaration of war" presupposes the nation-state system (or at least some recognizable nexus of sovereignty). <<<

Stuart,
Did Jefferson make any kind of declaration when he went after the Barbary pirates. That's the closest situation I can think of to our current war.

Joe,
One reason we look on the president as a king is that he is both head of state and head of the government. No one ever mistook Tony Blair for a monarch because there already was one.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 29, 2007 3:23:22 PM

and I think almost everyone who knows better, still tends to subconsciously regard the President as far more powerful than he is

Without doubting that's correct, Joe, I think it is also fair to say that federal aggrandizement, often alongside its twin demon US/western global hegemony, at the expense (and ultimate infantilization) of the several states and the people thereof, has proceeded at higher rates under chief butlers such as Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Eisenhower, LBJ, and Bush XLIII than it did under say a Coolidge or Taft or (perhaps??) Reagan. Name two major party candidates who will plausibly even attempt to shrink the size and scope of the federal government, the net effect of which would be a public campaign admission that some (perhaps many) of society's ills are not the legitimate domain of the central government. I can only think of one, and he is by that very virtue, likely "unelectable". So what. At least we will have tried.

Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Nov 29, 2007 4:51:43 PM

GL: However, another major fear of some anti-Federalists in the North Carolina Convention was that there was no ban on Catholics in public office. (The fear was even expressed that the Pope might become President, and one member also wanted provisions against pagans, lest members of Congress swear their oaths by Jupiter or Minerva.)

Posted by: James Kabala | Nov 29, 2007 6:39:28 PM

James K.,

And your point is . . . ? ;-)

Posted by: GL | Nov 29, 2007 7:04:49 PM

>>>Did Jefferson make any kind of declaration when he went after the Barbary pirates. That's the closest situation I can think of to our current war.<<<

No. Neither did John Adams request a declaration of war when he ordered our ships to defend our merchant commerce against French warships and privateers.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 8:32:22 PM

>>>"Congress shall make no law..." <<<

They should have put the period after "law".

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 8:33:40 PM

>>>Name two major party candidates who will plausibly even attempt to shrink the size and scope of the federal government, the net effect of which would be a public campaign admission that some (perhaps many) of society's ills are not the legitimate domain of the central government.<<<

Ron Paul talks a good game, but Rudolph Giuliani actually succeeded in reducing the size of the New York City government, reduced government expenditures, reduced crime and welfare dependency, lowered taxes and restored both solvency and the morale of a city that was teetering on the edge of financial and political bankruptcy. Only someone who lived in New York before and during the Giuliani era can appreciate the magnitude of his achievement. To what can Ron Paul, or Mike Huckabee (governor of a third-rate state known for its ineptitude and corruption) point that even comes close?

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 29, 2007 8:39:44 PM

It's just a funny story. Maybe it was your forefather who worried about the Pope becoming President or Congressmen swearing by Minerva, but even if so, it's not anything to get indignant about. If it had any point, it was that history can't usually be divided neatly into good guys and bad guys.

Posted by: James Kabala | Nov 29, 2007 9:22:12 PM

Judy,
The monarch of these united States is Jesus Christ, which was well understood by the generation of the War of Independence. It was even a battlecry. That is the nature of our system. Our Creator has endowed us with certain unalienable rights - neither government nor the 51% can take them away. The powers delegated to the civil government are limited and specific, they come originally from God, through the people, to the civil servants.

Throw God out, as the ACLU, NEA and the DNC wish to do, and all power resides in the State. Ave Cæsar. Or as they used to (and now again in campaign ads and debates) proclaim "Kaisaros ha kyrios kai soteros" Which is why the martyrs were martyred.

Cæsar is a jealous god.

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 29, 2007 10:53:16 PM

Stuart, I am under the impression that both Afghanistan and Iraq were State actors.

I lack your faith in the man on the white horse (other than the one in Rev. 19).

Posted by: labrialumn | Nov 29, 2007 10:56:09 PM

James K.,

The emoticon - ;-) - following my reply was meant to tell you that I was joking. I understood your point and, having read quite a bit about my forefather, I wouldn't doubt for a moment that he was in the group that wanted to exclude Catholics from office.

He was quite a character. He was also a slaveholder and shot and killed an Indian following a raid, so my connection to him could offend just about any group except good Scottish Presbyterians. He and his family were captured in the raid on Martin's Station during the Revolution and spent the rest of the Revolution as prisoners of war in Canada. Like Boone and Kenton, he lost his Kentucky land claims by failing to perfect them. Actually, he shouldn't have even been a delegate to the North Carolina Ratification convention as his residence, as shown by a later survey, was *just* over the line in Virginia, but there was not reason to be too particular about such matters, I suppose. ;-)

Posted by: GL | Nov 30, 2007 5:35:10 AM

In terms of whether or not Giuliani reduced crime in NYC, a chapter of the book, Freakonomics, by Levitt and Dubner, is devoted to the reduction of crime in the 1990s. The authors point out that the drop in crime in NYC actually began in 1990, although Giuliani did not become mayor until early 1994, by which time property and violent crime had already fallen 20%. Also that the police hiring binge (a growth of 45% in the NYPD from 1991 to 2001,) which clearly helped reduce crime, was started by David Dinkins; and that crime went down everywhere in the 1990s, not just in New York.

A number of crime-drop explanations are examined in the book, e.g. innovative policing strategies, changes in crack and other drug markets, population aging, tougher gun-control laws, a strong economy, increased number of police, etc., and are accredited with varying degrees of success of failure. The authors come to the very controversial conclusion, with the plea that the messenger be spared, that a major factor in crime reduction is actually abortion. They argue that abortion leads to less unwantedness and unwantedness leads to high crime, and show that, about as long after the legalization of abortion as it would take for a cohort of young men to reach their criminal prime, crime dropped. To support their theory, they compare crime data in the five states that allowed women to obtain an abortion prior to Roe v. Wade to the other 45 states and show that, between 1994 and 1997, the murder rates of the early-legalizing states dropped 23%.

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 30, 2007 10:55:57 AM

>>Francesca, on the contrary, it would mean that a third party would replace the GOP, the same way that the Republicans replaced the Whigs. <<

Maybe that would be a good thing. It's time for the GOP to put up or shut up about abortion. Economic conservatives and "values voters" don't necessarily belong in the same party anyway.

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 30, 2007 10:59:20 AM

>>>In terms of whether or not Giuliani reduced crime in NYC, a chapter of the book, Freakonomics, by Levitt and Dubner, is devoted to the reduction of crime in the 1990s. <<<

For a thorough rebuttal, see John Lott's book "Freedomnics:. Levitt and Dubner can be amusing, but at times their analysis lacks, shall we say, seriousness and rigor--as, e.g., when they claimed that abortion reduced the crime rate in the 1980s.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 30, 2007 11:10:09 AM

>>For a thorough rebuttal, see John Lott's book "Freedomnics:. Levitt and Dubner can be amusing, but at times their analysis lacks, shall we say, seriousness and rigor--as, e.g., when they claimed that abortion reduced the crime rate in the 1980s.<<

Again, don't shoot the messengers. One might not like certain conclusions, but that doesn't mean that they're incorrect.

From http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/ :

"Now let’s talk about John Lott for a minute. Along with John Whitley, he wrote a paper on abortion and crime. It is so loaded with inaccurate claims, errors and statistical mistakes ... Virtually nothing in this paper is correct, and it is no coincidence that four years later it remains unpublished. In a letter to the editor at Wall Street Journal, Lott claims that our results are driven by the particular measure of abortions that we used in the first paper. I guess he never bothered to read our response to Joyce in which we show in Table 1 that the results are nearly identical when we use his preferred data source. It is understandable that he could make this argument five years ago, but why would he persist in making it in 2005 when it has been definitively shown to be false? (I’ll let you put on your Freakonomics-thinking-hat and figure out the answer to that last question.) As Lott and Whitley are by now well aware, the statistical results they get in that paper are an artifact of some bizarre choices they made and any reasonable treatment of the data returns our initial results. (Even Ted Joyce, our critic, acknowledges that the basic patterns in the data we report are there, which Lott and Whitley were trying to challenge.)"

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 30, 2007 11:49:51 AM

So, let's get this straight--Lott criticizes the work of Levitt and Dubner, and in rebuttal you post an extract from one of Levitt and Dubner's more banal columns, in which they rebut. . . nothing at all? Lott was not the only economist to take Levitt and Dubner to task for their shoddy logic, but Lott's critique was the most devastating, and so far they have not actually bothered to do a scholarly response to it. But then, Levitt and Dubner are not serious scholars, whereas John Lott most certainly is.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 30, 2007 12:00:05 PM

>>But then, Levitt and Dubner are not serious scholars, whereas John Lott most certainly is.<<

Your opinion that Levitt (a much-heralded academic and the winner of the prestigious John Bates Clark Medal) and Dubner are less able scholars than Mary Rosh, er, I mean John Lott, is completely irrelevant to the validity of the arguments on either side. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts, and not liking the outcome of the Levitt/Donahue studies is not a reason to dismiss their expertise out of hand or to ignore their data. We need to look at how human beings actually behave, not how we think they should behave, and this means extracting meaningful patterns from data. I suggest looking at the published academic papers on both sides, examining the data at first hand, and studying the interpretations thereof. Personal attacks on experts on either side of the debate are pointless.

BTW, if you look at the Freakonomics blog extract, you'll find that it links to one of the published articles by Levitt and Donahue which addresses claims made by Joyce which have been reiterated by Lott.

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 30, 2007 1:13:03 PM

It's amazing to me that New York City was on a trajectory to go from a pit of crime, pornography, homeless people harassing passersby, squeegee men, etc., to a clean, low-crime, pleasant place during Giuliani's administration and he just happened to be there during that time. What a lucky guy!

Posted by: Judy Warner | Nov 30, 2007 1:29:53 PM

>>>What a lucky guy!<<<

Almost as lucky as Ronald Reagan, to become President just as Mikhail Gorbachev decided to close up shop in the USSR. Timing is everything, isn't it?

I do give Francesca this much slack: Because of her tender age, she never had to experience New York City as it was in the Dinkins era, so she can be forgiven for talking out of her hat.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Nov 30, 2007 2:00:29 PM

Almost as lucky as Ronald Reagan, to become President just as Mikhail Gorbachev decided to close up shop in the USSR. Timing is everything, isn't it?

Yes, I have always be amused by liberals who claim RR was just lucky to be at the right place at the right time, conveniently forgetting that they condemned him for suggesting the the Soviet Union was on the ash heap of history years before anyone else, and certainly not they, recognized it. In a way he was in the right place at the right time, but had he not recognized that and acted on it, we might still be facing the Evil Empire. Had his critics been around, they either would have failed to recognize it (which the vast majority did) or lacked the courage to act boldly to take advantage of the opportunity.

As to Guiliani, I don't like the guy personally nor politically, but Francesca, give credit where credit is due. I recall well what NY was like before he became mayor. What he did for the city was remarkable. Again, he might have been in the right place at the right time, but he had to recognize that and act on it or the opportunity would have been lost. Liberals, again, were blinded to the opportunity and, even had they recognized it, would have lacked the spine to act.

Posted by: GL | Nov 30, 2007 2:17:40 PM

The story in the L.A. Times this morning is that Mike Huckabee has pulled even with Mitt Romney in Iowa, which at present will have the first Presidential primary in the nation. Not good news for Romney. Perhaps even worse news for Guiliani. Not willing to give credit to evangelicals for this turn of events, the Times attributes it to Chuck Norris's support! Heh.

Posted by: Bill R | Nov 30, 2007 2:22:45 PM

Of course it's due to Chuck Norris' support! We all know that there is no theory of evolution - just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live. After all, Chuck Norris can lead a horse to water AND make it drink. Furthermore, when the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris. In conclusion, contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.

http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Nov 30, 2007 2:33:22 PM

For the nuance-challenged, there are undoubtedly several reasons why crime rates dropped dramatically in the US and Canada throughout the 1990s. Interestingly, Canada mirrored the U.S. pattern very closely and this was during a period in which Canada's prison population declined, there were fewer police officers on the streets, and there were moderate, not booming, economic gains.

Nowhere have I said that Giuliani didn't play any role at all in NYC; nor have I claimed that the decline is solely attributable to the legalization of abortion. However, in attempting to quantify Giuliani's role, one has to look at the many factors involved, the national and international trends at the time, and the fact that the decline in NYC (and national) crime started before he became mayor.

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 30, 2007 3:57:05 PM

For the nuance-challenged

So do you apply the nuanced approach to all issues, say global warming, or just some?

Posted by: GL | Nov 30, 2007 4:14:05 PM

>>So do you apply the nuanced approach to all issues, say global warming, or just some?<<

The mainstream peer-reviewed literature, on which my opinions on global warming are generally based, is pretty nuanced - more so, certainly, than say NoiseMax or WorldNutDaily.

Posted by: Francesca | Nov 30, 2007 11:58:11 PM

Y'all might be interested in this article by Jonah Goldberg, Ron Paul is not as scary as Mike Huckabee. Excerpt:

What's troubling about The Man From Hope 2.0 is what he represents. Huckabee represents compassionate conservatism on steroids. A devout social conservative on issues such as abortion, school prayer, homosexuality and evolution, Huckabee's a populist on economics, a fad-follower on the environment and an all-around do-gooder who believes that the biblical obligation to do "good works" extends to using government to bring us closer to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

For example, Huckabee would support a nationwide ban on public smoking. Why? Because he's on a health kick, thinks smoking is bad and believes the government should do the right thing.

And therein lies the chief difference between Paul and Huckabee. One is a culturally conservative libertarian. The other is a right-wing progressive.

Whatever shortcomings Paul and his friends might have, Paul's dogma generally renders those shortcomings irrelevant. He is a true ideologue in that his personal preferences are secondary to his philosophical principles.

As for Huckabee -- as with most politicians, alas -- his personal preferences matter enormously because, ultimately, they're the only things that can be relied on to constrain him.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Dec 1, 2007 6:13:00 AM

I have no idea why pieces of my posts come out in boldface. I don't make them that way.

Posted by: Judy Warner | Dec 1, 2007 6:14:10 AM

Francesca, every one of those abortions was pre-meditated (and brutal) murder, which ought to be taken into account.


The Freakonomics authors have an agenda to grind, and since countless studies show that tougher gun control laws increase crime, and laws more in keeping with the federal Constitution reduce crime, I find reason to question their statements.


Do remember, too, Francesca, that "no murderer has eternal life in him"


The Pope, President Reagan, and Margaret Thatcher were the key power players in the destruction of the then-growing Soviet Empire.


Clinton threw all of that away by not helping Yeltsin and Russia, and being offensive to them in the Balkans. Now we are once again facing a resurgent Soviet Empire run by the KGB in the person of Putin. That could have been prevented. I'm not sure that Clinton (or her husband on those occasions when he was not being pleasured) -wanted- a free Russia.


Bill, Iowa being a Free State has -caucuses- in January, not a primary. The people, not the parties, are on top in Iowa.


Francesca, special pleading by "main-stream" tut-tut.


Posted by: labrialumn | Dec 1, 2007 11:50:55 AM

I've been trying to complete a detailed response to various comments here piecemeal, but other matters (including other MC threads) continue to take priority. Perhaps in another 48 hours I'll be back.

Posted by: James A. Altena | Dec 2, 2007 8:24:23 PM

Returning to this thread as promised after an extended forced absence to attend to other priorities:

As a prelude, the following site is very useful for a summary of all of the candidates’ stands on various issues (including links to extensive quotes):

http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm

--------------------------------

RLS,

Your response is hardly adequate.

First, no-one here has defended wars of aggression; those who defend the war in Iraq do so as being a defensive war, a response to terrorism. You may disagree with that, but then you have to present evidence for your position – you can’t just assert it.

Second, it is all too easy to assume that your own position is “self-evident.” The whole point is precisely that it is *not* self-evident. That is why you are being asked to present evidence, not just assertions.

So the ball remains in your court. Present actual facts, reasons, and examples to support your contention that Ron Paul is the only candidate with a Christian foreign policy. Cite Scriptural texts, declarations of major ecumenical Christian councils, and exegesis of those by the patristic fathers and/or succeeding Christian theologians of similar stature (e.g. Aquinas, Luther, Calvin) to prove your contention.

Finally, no-one here has challenged Ron Paul’s integrity, just his knowledge and judgment. Most cranks are (in their own way) persons of integrity and consistency; that doesn’t make them any less cranks. And, since you quote Chesterton, I’ll give you another quote from him: “The problem with the madman is not that he is not rational; it is that he is *only* rational.” Which is to say, his rationality is highly selective; it focuses upon one principle to the exclusion of all others, and then drives that principle to the reduction ad absurdum. The crank in this sense is simply the madman one degree removed.

(And Labrialumn makes the elementary mistake of supposing that “crank” refers to temperamental irritability rather than extreme eccentricity.)

-----------------------------------

Steve,

First, I think few people here disagree with th principle of “subsidiarity.” I think there is disagreement regarding what levels at which that is constitutionally mandated (as opposed to permitted), and at what levels it can be effective for a nation of the size and complexity of the modern U.S.A., something the Founding Fathers could not fully envision.

As for the issues you cite – abortion, drugs, prostitution, gambling – somehow it seems to escape you that the third and fourth are already regulated at the state rather than federal level, except for certain interstate offenses (prostitution is legal in several Nevada counties, virtually all the states have their own lotteries, casinos, etc.). The second is split between federal and state authority, and all of the regulars here support the overturning of Roe v. Wade. However, I unabashedly support federal regulation of these two issues for the following reasons:

As for abortion, it is murder, and murder is properly a federal and not a state matter, being a crime against the populace the entire nation. And I presume that you don’t favor allowing some states to legalize murder, do you? So overturning Roe v. Wade is only the first step toward a constitutional amendment for the protection of the right to life of all human beings, and to ensure that the pre-born are clearly included in the constitutional definition of “person.”

As for drug use, it emphatically is *not* a matter of personal choice or a “victimless crime.” Unlike with alcoholic beverages, the *sole* purpose for using so-called “recreational” drugs is to alter one’s state of consciousness and mental capacities – in other words, to deliberately make one’s self into a less rational or positively irrational agent. Such a person is ipso facto a threat to the life, limb, and liberty of every other person, and that knows no state boundaries. It is also the basis for a large percentage of all other crimes. And I have never understood the “diminished capacity” defense for crimes committed under the influence of drugs or alcoholic intoxication; on the contrary, since the taking of the drug or liquor is an act of will, it should be counted as an aggravating condition and increase the severity of punishment.

As for Ron Paul, one problem with him is that he does not merely favor regulation by state governments rather than the federal government; as a libertarian he has advocated their outright legalization or decriminalization. In paticular, his stance on abortion has the same political pusillanimity of Stephen Douglas’ “popular sovereignty” on slavery, the “I’m personally opposed to abortion but...” wink-and-nudge hypocrisy of Mario Cuomo.

And (contra Stuart), as I have previous argued on MC, I do *not* think libertarianism and Christianity are compatible. (See “The Libertarian Question” of 02/17/2007; I have several posts there, but particularly the long one at the very end.) They are rather morally irreconcilable, since at bottom libertarianism is based upon self-idolatry of personal will and desires. (If I were to be classified politically, it would probably be as a Burkean-style conservative.)

As for your take on the Declaration of Independence vs. the Constitution – since the men who wrote and signed the former were also key drafters of the latter, you can scarcely separate and oppose the two in the manner you have attempted here. The writers clearly thought that the Constitution was a practical realization in the form of government of the ideals expressed in the Declaration. That is an undeniable historical fact.

Of course, given your pro-monarchist sentiments, I am wondering why Labrialumn hasn’t declared you to not be a “real American” and suggested that you should leave the country.

------------------------------

Labrialumn,

“I can read.”

With admittedly some reluctance, I will forego the volley of sarcastic responses such a straight line invites, and simply point out that:

a) no-one here stated or implied otherwise;
b) the statement is therefore nothing but a pathetic, petulant, self-serving little whine;
c) the fact that you can read does not mean that you correctly comprehend, understand, and evaluate what you read (more on that below). Which leads to the following:

“I have read the Declaration, the Constitution, The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, numerous diary entries and ‘Lex, Rex.’ Have you?”

Funny you should ask, Labrialumn. Not only have I read them (and the relevant works of Locke and Montesquieu, which you don’t mention), but in the early 1990s, when I was an adjunct faculty member at a university in the Chicago area, I taught courses on the U.S. federal and Illinois state constitutions. Can you claim to have done anything similar?

“They weren't written for lawyers, but for the People.”

Ah, yes . . . “the People” -- that impersonal monolithic entity that always just happens to agree 100% with the populist demagogue who invokes them to support his views. Rousseau and the “General Will” of the people . . . Adolf Schicklgruber und “das Volk” . . . Lenin and Stalin denouncing the “Enemies of the People” – the last squaring exactly with your previous proclamation that only people who agree with you count as “real Americans” and that anyone who doesn’t should leave the country. Interesting totalitarian company you keep, Labrialumn; it certainly indicates the kind of “freedom” you would allow to anyone who doesn’t pay you obeisance, should you and others of your mindset ever (God forbid) come to power.

Of course, you evinced the same mentality on a recent ID thread – when Gene Godbold didn’t agree with your rant there, you immediately called into question th veracity and integrity of his Christian faith. You seem to have a rather big problem with tolerating dissent, don’t you? Would you ming explaining how you square that with democracy and the Constitution?

Of course, the Constitution was drafted and approved by a body that included a great many lawyers. Though it was created to serve and govern a specific consenting body of people, the citizens of the several states, it was not created by your fictional monolith of “the People.” And the Constitution was not adopted by direct popular referendum, but rather by the votes of elected representatives. Nor has direct popular referendum ever determined its specific interpretation and application to case law, rather than those trained in the law. (Not that it is, or should be, left entirely to judges and lawyers, of course; but it is not done apart from them, and by virtue of professional training they have a key role.) And you conveniently ignore the fact that many of the Founding Fathers who framed that Constitution had a healthy skepticism of the judgment of “the people,” which is why the Constitution provides for the election of the President by the Electoral College, and (until 1913) the election of U. S. senators by state legislators.

“A Constitutional Law Scholar probably isn't going to agree with the founders that these were covenantal, rather than mutating, documents.”

Prove this statement in its entirety. There are plenty of respected constitutional scholars who reject the “living constitution” approach of the dominant liberal majority in academe. Of course, one would also have to know what you mean by “covenantal” as opposed to “mutating” – especially since the Constitution provides for its own mutation by the amendment process, and since some of the Founding Fathers thought that it might be necessary to have a new Constitutional Convention to create a new constitution every 20 years or so.

When your statement is taken as a totality, Labrialumn, the underlying theme is the assertion of every envy-riddled demagogic radical egalitarian: “Democracy means that my ignorant opinion is just as good as the expert’s learned one.” Well, it isn’t. The expert is not guaranteed to be right by mere virtue of his status; but he is entitled to a consideration that the unlearned amateur and ignoramus is not. Just because someone is intensely interested in airplanes doesn’t make his opinion on how to build or fly one as worthy of consideration as that of the engineer or trained pilot.

And that brings us back to the question I previously raised. I’m not qualified to lecture Stuart about military strategy, or GL or Bill R. about law, or Clifford about physics, or gene about biochemistry, etc. Likewise, I would never claim to have the legal expertise regarding the Constitution that e.g. GL as a law school professor surely has. But I do have a historian’s professional training to analyze and understand documents such as the Constitution, and I’ve taught courses on it. What qualifications do you have, Labrialumn?

It’s pretty clear that the answer is: none – except the capacity to expel large quantities of hot air.

The real problem here is that the self-described constitutional “strict constructionists” is essentially no different from the stereotypical free-lance fundamentalist preacher.

The fundamentalist preacher claims to adhere strictly to the text of the Bible alone, and holds that text to be completely perspicuous to any ordinary true believer. He rejects the exegesis of Scripture by the church fathers and the historical practice of the Church catholic (or else offers the occasional quote in a distorted form and out of context); proceeds to impose upon the text his own idiosyncratic and completely ahistorical interpretation; and declares that anyone who does not agree with him is not a true Christian and is going to Hell.

The self-proclaimed “strict constructionist” claims to adhere strictly to the text of the Constitution alone, and holds that text to be completely perspicuous to any ordinary true American. He rejects the exposition of the Constitution by the leading jurists and scholars of U.S. history, and the historical practice of the U.S. legal system (or else offers the occasional quote in a distorted form and out of context); proceeds to impose upon the text his own idiosyncratic and completely ahistorical interpretation; and declares that anyone who does not agree with him is not a true American and should leave the country.

As for Ron Paul and Neo-Nazi links – I would originally have been inclined to regard it as being partisan hyperbole, but the following story on the staunchly conservative web site “American Thinker” is of interest and gives one pause:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_ron_paul_campaign_and_its.html

Judging from this, it would seem that “crank” is, if anything, too mild a term.

Despite his overall mediocrity as a writer, Sinclair Lewis managed to capture quite well both the Ron Pauls and Labrialumns of the world, and what would happen to this country if such were ever to gain power, in his novel “It Can’t Happen Here.”

Finally, as for God being the sovereign of the USA – He is such of every other nation as well in the exact same sense, whether those nations acknowledge it or not. What seems to escape Labrialumn in the midst of his irrational tirades is that unlike OT Israel the USA is *not*, never was, and was never intended to be, an explicit theocracy.

Posted by: James A. Altena | Dec 4, 2007 5:36:21 PM

"As for Ron Paul, one problem with him is that he does not merely favor regulation by state governments rather than the federal government; as a libertarian he has advocated their outright legalization or decriminalization. In paticular, his stance on abortion has the same political pusillanimity of Stephen Douglas’ “popular sovereignty” on slavery, the “I’m personally opposed to abortion but...” wink-and-nudge hypocrisy of Mario Cuomo."

Ron Paul is the author H.R.1094 (The Sanctity of Life Act of 2007) a federal bill that declares that "human life shall be deemed to exist from conception" and that "each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State."

Posted by: Michael | Dec 21, 2007 11:16:58 PM

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