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December 20, 2007
Nativity Coverage by ABC
This is making quick rounds, sometimes with a misleading headline such as "Archbishop of Canterbury says Nativity a Legend." The transcript of the interview with Rowan Williams's comments is right here. I'd say his approach leaves me a bit cold, but he had been asked to assess the Nativity Scene of a typical Christmas card. He's pretty squishy in places, even the way he frames his answers, most especially the nuanced bit about the Virgin Birth. All so smooth. But calling the Nativity itself a legend is a misreading and bad headline writing, dishonest. Unlike mine for this post.
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I agree that the headline is misleading. However, I would say that Williams used poor judgment in deciding to participate in the discussion at all.
Posted by: Kirk | Dec 20, 2007 2:11:50 PM
Of course, the way in most people think of the Nativity is a legend--it's certainly not based on Scripture. Poor Williams, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. All I know for sure is it didn't at all resemble those nice Italian nativity sets you can buy at Home Depot these days.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 20, 2007 3:14:25 PM
I don't mean to be rude, but wouldn't it be funny if it turns out that the Nativity was exactly like an Italian Christmas Card? I know that if we end up in heaven we'll have other things to laugh about, but I'd still find that funny.
I do feel sorry for Williams. Much of what he said could be and often is said in a perfectly orthodox Christmas or Epiphany sermon - we don't know there were 'three' kings, etc.
I just think it would be funny, given that this is the common wisdom, if it turns out there were three kings, one African looking, riding in on camels, of course, with three gifts, an ox, an ass (Belloc called them 'the holy animals'), shepherds, angels round the stable...
Posted by: Francesca | Dec 20, 2007 4:36:38 PM
>>>Of course, the way in most people think of the Nativity is a legend--it's certainly not based on Scripture. ... All I know for sure is it didn't at all resemble those nice Italian nativity sets you can buy at Home Depot these days.<<<
Could it be that we have made an idol of the 'legendary' nativity scene?
What are the implications?
Posted by: Kirk | Dec 20, 2007 5:58:00 PM
>>>Could it be that we have made an idol of the 'legendary' nativity scene?<<<
A homily on this subject was delivered by my priest two Sundays ago. One problem with the "legendary" nativity scene (actually popularized by St. Francis of Assisi in the 13th century as a way of "humanizing" Christ) fatally sentimentalizes the cosmic event of the incarnation.
Or, if you saw the movie"Talledega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby", there is a scene in which Ricky Bobby (Will Ferrell) insists on praying grace to "Little Baby Jesus", which leads to an excursis on how they all "see" Jesus. Ricky Bobby prefers "Christmas Jesus". "Eight pound seven ounce Baby Jesus" to the "Easter Jesus" (his friend says, "I always pictured Him as a muscular trapeze artist"). I think this sums up the thinking of far too many people.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 20, 2007 6:38:16 PM
I think that Stuart fears that, if he ever agrees with Francesa, the server hosting MC will explode.
:-)
Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Dec 20, 2007 6:45:22 PM
>>One problem with the "legendary" nativity scene (actually popularized by St. Francis of Assisi in the 13th century as a way of "humanizing" Christ) fatally sentimentalizes the cosmic event of the incarnation.
I beg to differ. It's much deeper than sentimentality. More importantly, it isn't fatal except in the sense that it was fatal to Jesus, which fact was firmly in Francis' mind and formed the foundation of his love for the infancy narrative.
Posted by: DGP | Dec 20, 2007 9:52:09 PM
I've never had a disagreement with Stuart before.
I don't think Saint Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face had a sentimental piety.
Posted by: Francesca | Dec 21, 2007 4:40:10 AM
I suggest that one compare an icon of the Nativity with any painting on the same theme by the Great Masters, or better still, any Hallmark card depicting this cosmic event.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 21, 2007 4:48:54 AM
>>>I don't think Saint Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face had a sentimental piety.<<<
St. Therese did not have a sentimental piety; she was in fact a very hard-headed mystic. On the other hand, there are all those countless nuns and old ladies of every stripe venerating the Infant of Prague--which is piety at its most mawkish.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 21, 2007 4:50:55 AM
I was given to understand that applying pejorative adjectives to the piety of others - even if they're nuns and old ladies - was something to be avoided.
Posted by: Nick Milne | Dec 21, 2007 5:56:49 AM
>>>I was given to understand that applying pejorative adjectives to the piety of others - even if they're nuns and old ladies - was something to be avoided.<<<
That depends, of course, on whether you consider mawkish to be pejorative. But it is mawkish, and there is no way to get around that fact.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 21, 2007 6:02:31 AM
Dang... and here we've just started this year our collection of Fontanini Nativity display decorations. And now I find out that it's bogus. It was a choice between that one, and the Precious Moments one, and I figured I could trust the Italians to get it right. Rats.
At least we did not buy ours at Home Depot. (Though, I admit, only because I didn't think to look there.)
Hmm... come to think of it, our set came with the "Little Shepherd Angel" - a figurine of a childlike shepherd with little angel wings holding a little lamb. I should have suspected something was not quite right...
Posted by: Bill M | Dec 21, 2007 7:50:30 AM
"That depends, of course, on whether you consider mawkish to be pejorative. But it is mawkish, and there is no way to get around that fact."
Let me understand this correctly, Stuart. Are you saying that devotion to the Infant of Prague is mawkish or are you saying that certain individuals have an overly sentimental devotion?
Pray You, all-powerful and gracious Infant Jesus, for the sake of Your sacred infancy, in the name of Your Blessed Mother Mary, who cared for You with such tenderness, and by the greatest reverence with which St. Joseph carried You in his arms, help me in my needs. Make me truly happy with You, dearest Infant, in time and in eternity, and I shall thank You forever with all my heart. Amen."
Posted by: Brian Schuettler | Dec 21, 2007 9:53:40 AM
>>>Let me understand this correctly, Stuart. Are you saying that devotion to the Infant of Prague is mawkish or are you saying that certain individuals have an overly sentimental devotion?<<<
The latter is encouraged by the nature of the former.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 21, 2007 10:55:55 AM
"I've never had a disagreement with Stuart before."
Francesca, are you the one who posts on Maclin Horton's blog? If so, I think Mr. Godbold may be confusing you with another Francesca who posts here often, and with whom Stuart frequently disagrees.
Posted by: Rob G | Dec 21, 2007 10:57:55 AM
You mean there's another Francesca, one with whom I needn't necessarily instantly disagree?! What a relief! I was looking for the malicious agenda in the post above and detected none, which worried me!
Posted by: Joe Long | Dec 21, 2007 11:00:27 AM
"The latter is encouraged by the nature of the former."
Then I take it that you distain a tendency by some to mawkishly abuse the devotion rather than an having an objection to the devotion itself.
Posted by: Brian Schuettler | Dec 21, 2007 11:18:22 AM
Yes, I'm the Maclin Horton Com Box Francesca. I have no agenda and I usually only make jokes in com boxes.
Posted by: Francesca | Dec 21, 2007 12:35:41 PM
>>>Then I take it that you distain a tendency by some to mawkishly abuse the devotion rather than an having an objection to the devotion itself.<<<
The devotion is what the devotion is. It represents a particular thread of Western Christian spirituality that lends itself to over-sentimentalization, a tendency that I (along with contributing editor Leon Podles, among others) happen to think has had a deleterious long-term effect on the Church.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 21, 2007 12:56:25 PM
It could even be that not only Dr Podles but the other Francesca agrees with you about the mawkishness of devotion to the Infant Child, and hence my intervention has providentially brought you into harmonious accord.
Posted by: Francesca | Dec 21, 2007 1:03:34 PM
Francesca you might want to add to your name a bit. The other Francesca has a really bad rep. I went through the same moment of awed confusion that Joe did.
Posted by: Nick | Dec 21, 2007 5:25:12 PM
“On the other hand, there are all those countless nuns and old ladies of every stripe venerating the Infant of Prague--which is piety at its most mawkish.”
"That depends, of course, on whether you consider mawkish to be pejorative."
Stuart, let us knoww if you ever find anyone who *doesn't* think that "mawkish" is pejorative. :-)
For anyone who doesn't know what the Infant of Prague looks like, here are two sample links:
http://www.marys-touch.com/history/prague.htm
http://www.infantjesus.com/album.htm
Time for a joke!
There was once a woman born and raised in a parish with a shrine of the Infant of Prague, and the BVM and St. Joseph on either side of the Christ Child. Early on she developed a great devotional attachment to the shrine, and would pray before it every time she went to church, pleading for a sign of divine favor. She grew up, married, raised children, and was widowed in the parish. One Sunday, now quite elderly, she came to the shrine and offered her usual devotions. Suddenly, to her astonishment, the figure of the BVM turned toward the Christ Child, raised her arm and pointed at him, as St. Joseph also turned and looked on. As the woman watched, transfixed, the BVM opened her mouth to speak – and said:
“I don’t care what you say -– you are *not* going out to play dressed in your best Sunday clothes!!!”
Posted by: James A.. Altena | Dec 21, 2007 5:52:38 PM
>>>Stuart, let us knoww if you ever find anyone who *doesn't* think that "mawkish" is pejorative. :-)<<<
Well, if it's your grandma, of course it's not pejorative, it's "endearing".
But, if I did need a definition of mawkish, I think I would link to this site you referenced:
http://www.infantjesus.com/album.htm
However, since boys need a Jesus to whom they can relate, why not a Jesus of Nazareth Action Figure, with all sorts of accessories?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 22, 2007 6:02:03 AM
>>http://www.infantjesus.com/album.htm<<
Ah, mawkish! I get it.
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Dec 22, 2007 6:26:47 AM
>>>Ah, mawkish! I get it.<<<
Not by half, Bobby, not by half!
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 22, 2007 7:46:47 AM
"Why not a Jesus of Nazareth Action Figure, with all sorts of accessories?"
I'll go for it. What can you get for him out of the Pentagon arsenal, Stuart? :-)
Posted by: James A.. Altena | Dec 22, 2007 9:41:25 AM
>>What can you get for him out of the Pentagon arsenal, Stuart? :-)
Come now, shouldn't he get his accessories from the IDF or Mossad?
Posted by: DGP | Dec 22, 2007 10:21:59 AM
>>>Come now, shouldn't he get his accessories from the IDF or Mossad?<<<
Field expedient bris kit?
Combat colt of an ass?
Mud?
Woodworking kit?
Last Supper Playset?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 22, 2007 10:26:37 AM
>>Field expedient bris kit? Combat colt of an ass? Mud? Woodworking kit? Last Supper Playset?
If you want something that suits him but will also please other troops, try gear that will help change water into wine -- preferably in large volumes. Or maybe a still would suffice.
Posted by: DGP | Dec 22, 2007 1:15:34 PM
>>>If you want something that suits him but will also please other troops, try gear that will help change water into wine -- preferably in large volumes. Or maybe a still would suffice.<<<
That's in the Wedding at Cana action set--you have to supply the water, though. And for Easter, there's the Passion and Resurrection playkit, too. Goes well with this fellow:
http://www.igniteco.com/ignite/pictures/fullpic/P00058.jpg
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Dec 22, 2007 3:44:44 PM
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