« Winters' "Out of Whack" | Main | What Did the Parting of the Red Sea Really Look Like? »
January 28, 2008
Score One for Human Decency
I've promised one of our faithful readers, who took me to task for the flippancy of the post on voting for Caligula's horse, that I'd write more seriously about the fascinating things occurring this year in the Democratic and Republican parties. Truth to tell, I'm cheered by Barack Obama's victory over Mrs. Clinton. So are a lot of people who call themselves conservatives, and that demands some explanation, given that on social issues, on taxes, and on immigration, Mr. Obama's positions are impossible to separate from Mrs. Clinton's. What is going on here?
Well, one thing that's going on is that people are feeling the fresh breeze of justice. The media won't talk about it, but the Lewinsky affair was one of the smaller and less vicious of the scandals of Clintonia. My own favorite among them all was the acquisition of 900 or so FBI files on leading Republicans, and then the files' disappearance, so that every Republican who was anyone could consider himself compromised, though no one would ever know exactly who, or exactly how. Machiavelli would have approved. It may be, it just may be, that Americans have grown weary of the dirty tricks -- the same old pucker-faced manipulators, not sated with eight years in the White House and another eight years in the Senate, weeping on cue, "apologizing" in ways that deny any guilt and continue to cast aspersions on those they have offended, and even descending to the race-baiting we've witnessed in the last week. And they've gotten the thumping they deserved.
But the personalities involved fascinate me, too. Here you have Mrs. Clinton, an economic conservative in her (early) youth, after the fashion of her Republican father: a hard-driving, ambitious, Ivy League woman, working in the wings to bring down that paranoid liberal, Richard Nixon -- a man of immense talents who, outside of the realpolitik of international relations, had no idea what was going on in the culture of his day. One of the great ironies of our time is that Mrs. Clinton herself bears a great resemblance to Mr. Nixon, I mean in the paranoia, the destructive tendency to mistake political opposition for personal attack. And she also has not the slightest idea on what precipice her culture stands. (Eugene McCarthy had that slightest idea, maybe more than that.) But Mrs. Clinton rode both the old fashioned Powerful Husband train and the newfangled Feminist train to success. In a way that cripples her maneuverability, she is defined by that conflict, caught in the synergistic ideologies of feminism, statism, and sexual antinomianism.
But the voters have not flocked to her. Indeed, she is most fortunate to be alive in the race still, having won New Hampshire by a tiny percentage of the vote, and having sort-of won Nevada by an even tinier percentage. Over against her stands a man who embodies the single group of people hurt the worst by those synergistic ideologies: black men, who in the fifties could drive the length of North Carolina and not find a decent motel to sleep in, but a third of whom, in the nineties, in the balmy days of Clintonia, found that decent motel at one time or another in places like Leavenworth and San Quentin. Black men couldn't ride on a lot of buses then. Nowadays they have been thrown under the bus. Barack Obama must know this, on some level. Or it is at least possible that he may come to see it someday, if he is no longer beholden to his party, but his party is beholden to him. Goodness knows there are plenty of black men around who would be willing to show it to him. And perhaps, after the recent baiting, he may gather that, after all, the Ivy League lady never has done a darned thing for him and his people; that she and her husband have condescended to them, treating them as mascots; and that, when the days in the White House were over, she did not move back to Arkansas, did not move to live among them, but fled to the whitest of white suburbs of New York. I don't know.
I do know that if Mr. Obama is elected president, there is a chance, the slightest of chances, that he may help return the Democratic party to its old and somewhat self-contradictory position as the party of government intervention on behalf of small communities -- and I mean real communities, with all their local and parochial values. I am not saying that such a position is workable. But often reform comes with a look backwards, to see what or whom you've forgotten all about. It used to be that small town Catholics, for instance, voted for the Democrats, and the Democrats, inconsistently to be sure, favored the interests of those small towns, while a Republican secretary of agriculture, Earl Butz, would appeal to Darwinian economics, and declaim, for the benefit of the small farmer, "Adapt, or die." It used to be that Margaret Sanger, peddler of poison for the poor, received splendid welcomes from Republican women's groups -- but that was a long time ago.
If I were a betting man, I wouldn't lay a hundred dollars on the possibility that Mr. Obama would try to reconnect his party with the localist and populist strain in it, not to mention the unabashed Christian patriotism. I might bet ten, though. For one reason only: no one could say him nay. If he listened to those black ministers, and there are plenty, who point out that the most dangerous locality for a black American is his mother's womb, he would have the moral authority to put the brakes on the Democrat party's rush to approve everything and anything that Americans want to do to children, or to marriage, or to the family. He could, admittedly from the left, begin to rediscover what a community really looks like. I'm not saying that he would, or that he probably would. But as for the woman who wrote that it takes a village to raise a child, and whose whole career has been about nothing other than the co-opting of the village's authority by the leviathan State, and who has spent her life fleeing the village and its healthy parochialisms, she could as soon do it as she could deny what had brought her to her throne. Mrs. Clinton cannot look to the distant past. Mr. Obama can. Whether he would or not, of course, is a different matter.
Posted by Anthony Esolen at 05:38 PM | Permalink
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/234392/25568046
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Score One for Human Decency:
Comments
>>If he listened to those black ministers, and there are plenty, who point out that the most dangerous locality for a black American is his mother's womb, he would have the moral authority to put the brakes on the Democrat party's rush to approve everything and anything that Americans want to do to children, or to marriage, or to the family.<<
You might make me vote for him yet!
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Jan 28, 2008 5:49:53 PM
Not really, Tony. Barack Obama's victory in South Carolina was due to just one thing--he pulled in 98% of black Democratic voters in a state where half of the registered Democrats are black. Obama got just 28% of the white vote, and that is not nearly enough to win on a national basis. Nor does it show much inherent strength in South Carolina, for that matter.
No, what we have here is the triumph of identity politics, and a confirmation of OJ's Law: "Within identity politics, race trumps sex every time".
Consider what people would say if a white candidate pulled 98% of the white vote: would it be a triumph of openness, or would it be condemned as yet another confirmation of American racism?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 28, 2008 6:03:28 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Iowa hardly has a large African-American population. In fact, many believe that it was Obama's win in Iowa that made blacks in places like my home state of South Carolina start to believe that a black man could possibly be elected. His rally Saturday night in Columbia had a large crowd of whites in attendance, particularly young people who are riding his idealism train. He isn't just a black phenomenon. And as one who plans on voting Republican in November no matter who the nominee is, I think we dismiss him at our peril.
Posted by: Janet C. | Jan 28, 2008 6:45:01 PM
>>>Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Iowa hardly has a large African-American population.<<<
And the caucuses are hardly a straight up-and-down vote. So there.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 28, 2008 6:50:57 PM
Janet,
The popular opinion is that since the caucus require open debate and votes Obamma was able to pull more white voters who didn't wish to appear racist.
Posted by: Nick | Jan 28, 2008 7:17:00 PM
>>>The popular opinion is that since the caucus require open debate and votes Obamma was able to pull more white voters who didn't wish to appear racist.<<<
An appearance which does not appear to motivate (or stop) the Clintons. But then, is anyone outside the Democratic party really surprised by their blatant race baiting? At least their conduct has had the effect of giving prominent Democrats the opening they needed to turn on the Clintons and I, for one, am enjoying watching it. The air on invincibility has been lost. Let the feeding frenzy begin.
Posted by: GL | Jan 28, 2008 7:33:55 PM
Make that "The air of invincibility . . . ."
I believe I see signs of spring. Jadis is getting worried and, as we all know, when she gets worried, she just gets meaner.
Posted by: GL | Jan 28, 2008 7:48:17 PM
I am not the slightest bit cheered by any Obama victory over Hillary, or the reverse. The one thing I will give Hillary over Obama is extensive and substantive experience. The utterly feckless Obama has failed to impress me as being anything other than a Potemkin village on legs -- all facade and no substance whatsoever. I take no cheer in the prospect of a sock puppet for a president, not even at Hillary's expense.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 28, 2008 8:16:43 PM
Mr Koehl, that's 88%, not 98. Not that it nullifies what you said (though I disagree), but in the interest of getting the facts right.
Posted by: Anna | Jan 28, 2008 8:20:49 PM
James,
On this you and I must disagree. It is her competence which worries me most, for she is a mean, vindictive woman who will misuse any power she has. Her understanding how to do so efficiently just makes it that much worse. Obama may be all style and no substance, but such presidents usually end up being one-termers and I don't expect he would misuse his office to harm his opponents. Hillary has no opponents, only enemies.
Of course, I would never vote for either of them if for no other reason than their support of our 35-year-long abdication of one of government's primary responsibilities, the protection of innocent human life. Unfortunately, McCain and Romney are not much better, as both support ESC research. Our choices in November are not looking very good.
Posted by: GL | Jan 28, 2008 8:43:30 PM
Nick, that may be true, although I hope we have gotten further in this country than that. But I was referring to the reaction of the black community to the Iowa caucus. I live in a county in South Carolina that cast over 14,000 votes in the primary on Saturday, and over 10,000 of those went to Obama, with less than 3,000 going to Hillary. That is a huge shift over the past few months. This was a very pro-Clinton county just six months ago. So, all I am saying is that something significant has changed in the perceptions of the black community. They knew Obama was black six months ago, but have only recently changed their allegiance. Bill Clinton's race baiting here certainly didn't help Hillary, but it's more than that. Just an observation.
Posted by: Janet C. | Jan 28, 2008 8:52:54 PM
>>I believe I see signs of spring. Jadis is getting worried and, as we all know, when she gets worried, she just gets meaner.
As far as I can tell, Sen. Obama's viability is almost entirely a creation of the mass media, who all but canonized him in 2004. According to deep magic from the dawn of time, all such persons belong to Jadis.
Posted by: DGP | Jan 28, 2008 8:58:07 PM
Hillary! has ''extensive and substantive experience". Really. Does eight years as First Lady count? Or is it the economic acumen she displayed by making a killing on the cattle futures market? Are you maybe referring to the success of her health care intiative? Or is it her grasp of the ways and means one needs to shut down bimbo eruptions? Obama has served more years in legislative office than Hillary! has. Support of abortion is a deal-breaker for me, so I cannot vote for the man, but I do not fear for my country should he be elected, as he seems to lack the narcissism and vindictiveness we have come to know and love from Hillary! and Mr. Bill.
Posted by: Scott Walker | Jan 28, 2008 9:02:34 PM
I thought that Obama actually picked up a sizeable portion of the white vote in S.C. Almost as much as Clinton did as a matter of fact. Pundits are reading it as a bad sign for Clinton.
Here in Colorado, its the white liberal voter where he's making the greatest inroads.
Posted by: Seth R. | Jan 28, 2008 9:38:15 PM
"Potemkin village on legs" - James, I love it! I may just have to steal that line.
I turned on the car radio on the way to work today and it happened to be tuned into Rush Limbaugh. He seemed to have an interesting take. He said something about Americans wanting a new Camelot and Mrs. Clinton isn't it but Obama presents the possibility.
Made me wonder, for the first time, if Barak might be able to beat his Deborah? (well, at least an anti-Deborah)
Kamilla
Posted by: Kamilla | Jan 28, 2008 10:12:42 PM
>>>I thought that Obama actually picked up a sizeable portion of the white vote in S.C. Almost as much as Clinton did as a matter of fact. Pundits are reading it as a bad sign for Clinton.<<<
As I noted, that 'sizable portion" amounted to 24% in a three-way field. Not good for Obama. That Hillary was not able to pull in more black women, or win white women by the same proportion as Obama won black men, shows that Hillary is unattractive to white male voters, not that Obama is attractive to them.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 29, 2008 3:49:38 AM
The pundit class, at least, seems to be taking the Obama victory as license to reveal their negative feelings about the Clintons. That's a good thing.
Obama appeals to people because he is not nasty and hostile towards ordinary Americans. I remember hearing his speech at the 2004 Democratic convention and being moved by it. It was an appeal to the unity of all Americans. Since I have been reading Jonah Goldberg's book, Liberal Fascism, I have a new attitude towards unity. It is a hallmark of fascist leaders that they appeal to the unity of the nation and then unify the people under their own program, crushing the opposition. While Obama is not a fascist, nor is he a strong enough leader to do any such thing, there is still the same note of "Everybody agree with me and then we will be unified." It is always conservatives who are portrayed as divisive, because they don't agree with the left. Obama seems a master of this kind of thing, rhetorically.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 29, 2008 6:52:47 AM
I'm always amused by Democratic criticism of "divisive" conservative candidates, as I try to picture the left-winger who could be "inclusive" when it came to me. It would be fun to ask, in a "town hall" format:
"Hi! I'm a pro-gun, anti-'choice' religious conservative who reveres the ideas of the Founding Fathers, admires the military virtues, believes in traditional gender roles as a social good, expects an ongoing, ugly war with Islam to take most of the next century and thus prefers to prosecute it vigorously now, and incidentally cherishes a sentimental and occasionally perhaps inordinate affection for the former Confederacy. I'd just like to know how you as a 'uniter' intend to unite me and those like me, with yourself and your plans for our society."
Posted by: Joe Long | Jan 29, 2008 8:06:38 AM
Well, those of you who are discouraged with the Republican field could at least vote in your *primary* for the lone Republican pro-lifer, Ron Paul. He actually has a chance. But if McCain or Romney or Huckabee get the nomination, there's no a whit of difference between 'em. (Guiliani's a disaster who'll soon be gone.)
So you're wasting your primary vote if you vote for one of those three. You'll probably get to vote for one of them anyway in the real election, unless enough people wake up and start voting for Paul.
Posted by: Chris Ryland | Jan 29, 2008 9:16:22 AM
Ah, yes, why can't we all just get along. I listened to Obama talk about how united the nation was when JFK was president. Really? That would be news to those who voted for Nixon (who likely won if the voter fraud on both sides was netted out -- Nixon was a piker compared to Old Joe) and to those who were already lining up behind Goldwater before Kennedy was shot. American politics has always been divisive. That's how our founders designed it. Your choices are divisiveness or tyranny. I think I'll take divisiveness.
Yet there are new sources of division which did not exist when JFK was in the White House. Back then states could, and did, criminalize sodomy, abortion and, in some jurisdictions, contraception. Back then states could, and did, require fault before granting a divorce. Back then states could, and did, limit marriage to one man and one woman with no civil unions or any other forms of marriage-lite for those who did not meet the opposite sex requirement. If Obama wants to end division by going back to the laws that existed on the morning of November 22, 1963, when the nation was united (per his sanitized understanding of the times) I'll vote for him. I don't think that is what he has in mind, however.
Posted by: GL | Jan 29, 2008 9:33:43 AM
"As I noted, that 'sizable portion" amounted to 24% in a three-way field."
split evenly it would be 33%. The 24% is not bad for a black candidate in a southern state, I would say, especially when the third candidate was that born in that state and was the senator from the next door state.
Obama may not win but he can draw substantial numbers of white voters.
Posted by: JRM | Jan 29, 2008 10:23:45 AM
Whatever happens on Feb. 5, it is now apparent that it will not settle the matter. Back in 1988, the Dems amended their primary rules to require dividing delegates based on the proportion of the vote each candidate received -- a compromise exacted by Jesse Jackson to get him to support Dukakis, who didn't have the delegates he needed to go over the top without Jackson's. Thus, unlike the GOP, there are no winner-take-all states. The result, even if Hillary wins in big states like California and New York, she will have to share the bounty with Obama and, likely, Edwards. There is a real possibility because of this rule change that the Democrats will still be fighting this out in April or even May. It is, in fact, conceivable (though, probably not likely) that they will begin their convention without a clear winner. The longer this goes, the nastier it is likely to get. :-)
Posted by: GL | Jan 29, 2008 10:34:08 AM
>>.So you're wasting your primary vote if you vote for one of those three. You'll probably get to vote for one of them anyway in the real election, unless enough people wake up and start voting for Paul.<<<
As P.J. O'Rourke noted, Ron Paul is very popular among those who spend their evenings in Ayn Rand chat rooms, bury Krugerands in their backyards, and believe that Tri-Lateral Commission is responsible for sub-prime mortgage foreclosures. Think of him as the Dennis Kusinich of the Republican Party.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 29, 2008 11:10:53 AM
GL notes one of the stupider developments in our presidential politics, the proportional-delegates rule for the Dems. I remember way back in 1976 avidly following candidate Reagan's fortunes -- and he whipped Ford soundly in Texas, taking all 270 of the state's delegates. Didn't get the nomination, though. Missed it by that much, says Maxwell Smart, as the bad guy leaps through a fifth-story window to his cushioned getaway truck below ...
Another stupid development is the whole primary system. I'd love for the Republicans to back away from it, batting in the BOTTOM of the inning, so to speak. Let the Democrats choose whom they want, and let the people get sick of that candidate, and then keep the suspense going on the other side, and spring Mr. Messiah upon an eager and silly populace. Seriously, I think the primary system is perversely designed to ensure that money and platitudes will ALWAYS win a party's nomination, rather than just most of the time.
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Jan 29, 2008 12:11:23 PM
I was just telling my in-laws the weekend (to their shock, I think) that I thought it would be better if the parties ended the primary system and went back to the smoked-filled rooms, with the party bosses choosing the nominees. What's the purpose of a party if it cannot choose its own nominee for President and present him (or her) to the people rather than having the people (in many cases, including those not even members of their party) choosing the nominee and presenting him (or her) to the party? The whole idea is stupid.
But if the Dems are so set against delegates choosing the winner (see their complaint that Al Gore won the popular vote, yet lost the electoral vote and, hence, the presidency), why not go all the way and just have the nominee of their party selected by popular vote in primaries (no caucuses) and skip the delegates altogether? Of course, its hard to know who would go to a convention if there were not delegates. But then the conventions haven't been anything but a big media circus in more than 50 years, so eliminating that would be another plus.
Posted by: GL | Jan 29, 2008 12:35:49 PM
<>
Some of those who follow him may be that way, but Ron Paul is not. Those who follow Kusinich are wacky and so is Kusinich, but it's not that way with Ron Paul.
Posted by: Bob | Jan 29, 2008 12:53:41 PM
Scott, you thought that -Bill- was operating the presidency those two terms?
Barak Hussein Obama is no friend to those most average of all Americans; the unborn.
We might possibly be seeing the Mussolini wing of the Democrat party winning over the Nazi wing. Of course, the mainline Nixon-Rockeffer Republicans are also of the Mussolini wing.
Stuart, you find the Constitution to be so absurd as that? Did you take an oath to uphold and defend it against all enemies; foreign and domestic?
Huckabee is pro-life, I'll give him that. Guiliani, Romny and McCain are all RINOs. Pro-abortion, anti-free speech RINOs at that.
GL, I prefer the caucus system, where the people - your neighbors - get together and discuss the issues, vote on a platform and a delegate. Iterate at the State level. Let the delegates then pick which one of them should be the candidate at the national convention.
While we are at it, we need to repeal the 16th and especially the 17th amendments to the Constitution.
Posted by: labrialumn | Jan 29, 2008 1:52:33 PM
The caucus system lacks the most basic element of democracy, the secret ballot. It is susceptible to manipulation by well-prepared operatives who know how to sway a crowd. I don't think the current primary system is the best possible one, but if we are going to have the people select the candidates they should be able to do so out of the public view.
The left has never liked the two-party system. They would prefer a multi-party, proportional representation system so they can get a foothold and push our politics to the left. Also, it would be a less stable system, and the left likes instability. There seems little possiblity of this happening, so they have weakened the parties instead. This gives more extreme groups more influence in the political process. It would be a great thing if Republicans returned to smoke-filled rooms and a real convention, showing the left that they are the party of stability. But they are infected with populism and will not even think of doing that. (And nobody at the top level of politics smokes any more.)
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 29, 2008 2:01:58 PM
>>>Stuart, you find the Constitution to be so absurd as that? Did you take an oath to uphold and defend it against all enemies; foreign and domestic?<<<
I find that Ron Paul's understanding of what the Constitution requires is dogmatic and simplistic, and I will not vote for someone whose policy positions take no notice of reality. Politics is the art of the possible, and if Ron Paul were serious, he would temper his rhetoric and his position papers with a good dose of prudence. The great strength of the Founders was their lack of devotion to theory, the rock upon which most political revolutions from 1789 onward has foundered. Practical men, they were true conservatives in that they had a deep understanding of the intractability of human nature and the need for incrementalism and consensus in affecting change. That's why the Constitution was organized as it was--to ensure that nothing would happen without consensus. Anyone proposing radical change who does not already have that consensus is merely peeing to windward, and not to be taken seriously.
If Paul were serious, he would take cognizance of the fact that we did not get to the position we occupy overnight; the expansion of the Federal Government goes back a century--some would say even to the day that the ink dried on the Constitution. It cannot be reversed overnight, certainly not by executive fiat. Paul, if he is intelligent (and people assure me that he is) must know this. That he talks as he does therefore indicates that he does not consider himself more than a gadfly, and recognizes that if elected (perhaps because a meteor impact manages to take out all the other candidates at one of the endless debates), he would have not the slightest chance, nor even the slightest idea, of how to implement his proposals.
Therefore, I won't waste my vote.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 29, 2008 2:05:31 PM
Did you, or did you not take an oath?
Posted by: labrialumn | Jan 29, 2008 2:11:06 PM
"Consider what people would say if a white candidate pulled 98% of the white vote: would it be a triumph of openness, or would it be condemned as yet another confirmation of American racism?"
Just look at how the the Main Scream Media, and others like-minded liberals, have described Republicans and you'll find your answer. How many times have we heard Republican wins described as victories brought about solely by "angry white men"?
Posted by: Daniel Crandall | Jan 29, 2008 2:19:12 PM
>>>Did you, or did you not take an oath?<<<
I have, and I upheld that oath. But, perhaps, it doesn't quite mean what Ron Paul would think it means?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 29, 2008 3:05:01 PM
I know this is reaching pretty far back in the comment string, but -
>>>race trumps sex every time<<<
I wonder if Reggie White would agree?
And Mr. Obama's comments vis-a-vis the price of arugula at Whole Foods make me wonder if his 'populist' appeal can really be all it's cracked up to be.
Posted by: CKG | Jan 29, 2008 4:17:55 PM
Labrialumn -
That was downright out of line of you towards Stuart. He takes issue with Ron Paul, and you accuse him of violating his oath to uphold the constitution? That sort of petty escalation is shameful.
Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Jan 29, 2008 4:51:51 PM
I wouldn't say the parallels between Paul and Kucinich are all that strong. They differ in a very important respect: their wives.
Mrs. Paul is age appropriate to her husband, has 18 grandchildren, and is apparently a heck of a cook. She and Ron met in high school and married in 1957.
Mrs. Kucinich is a 31-year-old English bombshell, has a dregee in Peace Studies, and apparently has a silver tongue piercing. She is Mr. Kucinich's third, and they married in 2005.
This post was originally meant as something of a joke, but upon further reflection I think it really does tell us something about the qualities of the two men.
Posted by: Ethan C. | Jan 29, 2008 5:27:52 PM
"This post was originally meant as something of a joke, but upon further reflection I think it really does tell us something about the qualities of the two men."
In other words, Ethan, Paul is a Republican and Kucinich is a Democrat. 'Nuf said.
Posted by: Bill R | Jan 29, 2008 5:45:01 PM
"That was downright out of line of you towards Stuart. He takes issue with Ron Paul, and you accuse him of violating his oath to uphold the constitution? That sort of petty escalation is shameful."
Indeed. Unfortunately, it is also par for the course with Labrialumn. Scan any number of his comments on previous threads in receent weeks. Disagree with his politics, and he suggests that his opponent is un-American or unpatriotic (cf. Stuart here and others elsewhere). Disagree with him about ID, and he calls into question the Christian faith of his opponent and accuses him of worshipping an "evil god" (cf. comments against Gene Godbold, myself, and several others) Disagree with him on any theological point, and he proclaims himself the standard of orthodoxy and accuses his opponent of heresy and even of denying central tenets of the Christian faith (cf. his attacks of Dr. Hutchens in particular).
As I pointed out regarding Labrialumn before, such tactics are the stock in trade of demagoguery. And the fact that Ron Paul attracts such people as his supporters is one of the best reasons there is not to support Ron Paul for any office whatsoever. Beware the man who proclaims himself the defender of freedom, but who refuses to recognize any principled disagreement with his own views, and attacks the patriotism and moral integrity of every opponent! The only liberty such a man believes in is unlimited for himself to persecute others, and to call that justice.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 29, 2008 5:51:02 PM
Scott,
Are you seriously suggesting that Obama's eight years as a bench warmer in the undistinguished slop trough of the Illinois state legislature (and I lived in Chicago for 13 years) is in any way comparable to Hillary's first full term in the U.S. Senate?
And, yes her eight years as First Lady do count for something in the experience column, as she was clearly involved in formulating policy along with her husband. (That is also an excellent reason to vote against her, considering what those policies were -- not that Obama's will be any different on most points).
And I believe she learned something salutary from the health care debacle that Obama has not grasped -- that politics is the art of the possible, not the realm of wishful thinking, and that compromise and acceptance of limits are inherent elements of that.
Also, by most accounts, Hillary has done a competent job of attending to the mundane bread-and-butter issues of her state constiutency (not that I necessarily agree with any of those things), which is one reason why she won re-election so handily in 2006.
The point I am making, that you (and perhaps some others here) seem to miss, is not that Hillary is at all desirable. It is rather that the supposition that Obama the Tabula Rasa is somehow less mean or vindictive (or whatever) than Hillary is just as much a matter of projection as is being projected by the media and practiced by his supporters. Fr. DGP has it pegged right; all such persons belong to Jadis. Why should I believe that such a contentless person will be *less* bad than Hillary? On the contrary, the lack of substance simply leaves room for him to end up being even worse, or a Trojan Horse for the conveyance of something worse. Chesterton observed that the man who does not believe in God will believe in anything. Likewise, the man who has no substance, no core, is liable to become anything.
The difference between Hillary and Obama on Iraq is instructive here. Like other Democrats who originally voted for the authorization resolution, Hillary predictably now offers tortuous rationalizations to try to justify her "yes" vote to the rabidly "no" vote base constituency of her party. But at least she has the sense to realize that an immediate unilateral pullout would be disastorus,and that we are delaing with thugs. Obama, by contrast, thinks that all foreign policy can be conducted as if Rodney King was Secretary of State ("Can't we all just get along?") and that dealing with the leaders of Iran and Hamas is no different than jawing with local drug-dealing pimps in the Cabrini-Green housing project. Between the two of then, I think Hillary is likely to do less irreparable harm to the body politic.
My good friend GL has the only and correct counter-argument, but I continue to disagree. E.g., I do not know, and do not see how anyone can prove with certainty, that Hillary has only enemies and not opponents. That she has been able to work with opposing party members in the Senate is certainly contrary evidence. Such an assertion claims an ability to know hearts and souls that belongs only to God and to those few persons with a special divine grace of discernment.
I suppose the foregoing will be misinterpreted by someone as a defense of Hillary. It is not. It is simply an explanation of why I think Obama (or, for that matter, most of the other declared Democratic candidates) would likely be even worse.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 29, 2008 7:23:55 PM
Contrary to Labrialumn's canard that McCain is pro-abortion, I suggest reading the following:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDAyYjVkNmU3MGIzODQ4ZGU2Y2M1OGUzYWQwM2VhMDk=&w=MA==
I disagree with the author that McCain's pro-life record is "perfect", but it is far better than most, and in the places where it has changed (e.g. on ESC research) it has shifted continually in a better direction. Unlike e.g. Mitt Romney, he has a real track record on the issue. It also needs to be recalled that even Fred Thompson and Ron Paul have both stated that once Roe v. Wade is overturned, that the matter should be left to individual states to legislate, and neither one supports a pro-life federal constitution amendment.
There is also the fact that the McCains adopted a baby girl from Mother Teresa's orphanage, and brought back with them a second child to be adopted by someone else.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 29, 2008 7:45:14 PM
I agree with most of what Mr. Altena has said on Hillary v. Barack. I do differ from him in that while he is completely dispassionate on the subject, my instinctual feelings are similar to those of Dr. Esolen, but from a rational point of view, there is little difference between Obama and Clinton. I am surprised to see the usually hard-headed Dr. Esolen be taken in by a mere affable personality. The idea that there is any chance (barring a miracle) that Obama will "listen to those black ministers... who point out that the most dangerous locality for a black American is his mother's womb" is a fantasy - or perhaps I should say "a fairy tale."
Posted by: James Kabala | Jan 29, 2008 9:41:48 PM
I'm supporting Ron Paul. But if he doesn't win the nomination and I have to choose between pro-abort McCain and preo-abort Obama, I'm probably going to vote for Obama. But I like being able to say "I've never voted for a pro-abort" so I might not vote.
Posted by: Matt Karnes | Jan 30, 2008 1:25:20 AM
I would really like to know where the vicious lie of the "pro-abort McCain" got started and spread thorugh the Internet. As I indicated, his record is not absolutely perfect, but overall it has been consistently pro-life.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 5:04:18 AM
A very fair resposne to me from James Kabala -- thank you, sir.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 5:05:53 AM
Here are some links to sites that rank the presidential candidates on abortion in particular and (the last two) conservative policies in general. In some ways the most informative is NARAL's pro-abortion rankings, though (like the otehr sites) it does not specify the particular bills in question it used for its ratings.
(The anit-spam filter is forcing me to post the link in separate posts.)
I would like for those who allege that John McCain is "pro-abortion" to explain why he has a 0% pro-abortion rating from NARAL in almost every year going back to 1987. Or why don't you just stop your vicious lies instead?
http://www.prolifefederation.org/custom1.asp
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 5:36:31 AM
The NARAL link:
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 5:37:57 AM
A second pro-life site:
http://www.mediamouse.org/griid/electionwatch/2008/01/presidential-candidates-on-the/
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 5:39:27 AM
Conservative voting rankings in genral:
http://www.conservative.org/archive2/2008potus.asp
http://www.acuratings.org/
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 5:41:01 AM
>>>I would really like to know where the vicious lie of the "pro-abort McCain" got started and spread thorugh the Internet. <<<
While I am not a supporter of McCain (until he is running against Hillary or Obama), I have to say that he has been the victim of more lies and slanders than any politician I know of, except President Bush. Ironically, Bush's supporters were among those who slandered McCain in South Carolina in 2000. At that time there was a rumor that he had a black child out of wedlock. That was, of course, the Indian girl he and his wife had adopted. For years there has been a campaign, mainly by one man, to convince people that McCain collaborated with the North Vietnamese in prison. As y'all no doubt know, McCain was offered early release and refused it. As punishment, his captors removed the cast on his broken arm and twisted it brutally. That is why he can't use that arm to this day. He was incredibly heroic as a POW, and an inspiration to the others, according to my husband's first-hand knowledge. No doubt it is some of the same dishonest opponents who are claiming he is not pro-life.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 30, 2008 6:08:41 AM
This conversation seems to have taken a turn toward civility, so I feel comfortable to post.
There is a certain appeal to having a president as smart or smarter than oneself, and Barack Obama seems to fit that bill for many people. He may be quite calculating and unscrupulous, but that is not yet proven. Please cut one another enough slack to think best of a person until proven otherwise.
His policies give some indication that he is, shall we say, selectively principled. This is better than Hillary, but not very promising.
From my seat as a high school teacher, an Obama presidency carries one great promise: that black youth everywhere might see that America is NOT against them (even though law enforcement officials haven't gotten the memo). This would be no small achievement, and might have a profound impact on American cities.
I would not cast my vote for a pro-choice, big-government politician, however, whatever the upside. But compared to a Clinton, Obama looks like a philosopher king.
Posted by: Daniel Propson | Jan 30, 2008 6:27:01 AM
>>>At that time there was a rumor that he had a black child out of wedlock. <<<
At least that would dispel any hints of racism, and put him on the same pedestal as Thomas Jefferson.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 30, 2008 6:36:59 AM
>>>There is a certain appeal to having a president as smart or smarter than oneself, and Barack Obama seems to fit that bill for many people. <<<
But then, so do my cats.
>>.that black youth everywhere might see that America is NOT against them (even though law enforcement officials haven't gotten the memo).<<<
Who could be more against blacks than Barack Obama--unless it's Hillary Clinton. Neither one wants to tell black kids and their parents that the real secret of success lies in education, hard work, deferred gratification, fidelity in marriage and good parenting. in other words, what is often disparaged as "acting white". Ironically, Obama himself benefitted from this formula, and acts whiter than just about any black man I know (and I know a lot of white guys who can't act that white), yet he persists in telling blacks that they are the victims and in need of the largesse of the (guilt-ridden) white majority. In fact, white oppression, black separatism, black racism--all are very much at the center of the message preached at Barack Obama's own church. He has never repudiated or even distanced himself from that message, which leads me to doubt his sincerity when he says he wants to bring all Americans together.
If there is any lesson behind the Obama campaign, it is that no matter how wet behind the ears you are, no matter how crack-brained your ideas may be (Invade Pakistan? That's my definition of a strategic brain-fart), no matter that you have spent all of two years on the national stage, you, too can become a contender for the Democratic Presidential nomination if you look nice, mouth gaseous platitudes, and can play upon residual white guilt.
>>>But compared to a Clinton, Obama looks like a philosopher king.<<<
Philosophy HAS been on the skids of late--but what academic discipline has not?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 30, 2008 6:45:50 AM
>>>Philosophy HAS been on the skids of late--but what academic discipline has not?<<<
Math! :)
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Jan 30, 2008 7:50:08 AM
A 12-year-old Eastern European immigrant with academic parents told my son that Obama is his "hero". He then had no comment of substance about the man's life OR policies, as Conrad related to me disgustedly. Typical Obama supporter, though fortunately he can't vote (although if his intentions to vote Obama get out, the Democrats might try to bus him to a polling place or three anyway).
James is right; there is no reason to suppose "O" is less malicious than Hillary, and considerable reason to suppose he would be more capable since his personality does not (at least once media-filtered) actually project malign intent. Also, from a race-politics angle, he'd be a very poor choice, because if Obama IS our first (second?) "black President" he will be the last for a very, very long time. (Same goes for Hillary as a female President.) After the experience of a disastrous single term from either, I predict the nation as a whole would as lief elect another peanut farmer as another of them. Small-minded, I'm sure, as a shrewd conservative black person, woman, or peanut farmer could redeem the image of any of these groups...but if you crow about your "identity" being a prime qualification and then fail spectacularly, you've made a hearty stab at discrediting the "identity" itself!
Posted by: Joe Long | Jan 30, 2008 9:13:06 AM
James,
Thanks for the web site related to McCain and abortion. I am curious about your comment about his moving in the right direction on ESC research. Do you have a cite for that? All I have seen is that he supports it.
My heart wants to vote for Huckabee (despite my problems with his ideas on taxes and the economy) because he is undeniably pro-life and has a record to prove it. However, it is obvious that we are down to a two-man race between McCain and Romney. I'm not jumping up and down with excitement over either of them and am vacillating between them. As my state's primary is next Tuesday, I'd welcome any arguments for or against those two.
Posted by: GL | Jan 30, 2008 10:09:10 AM
This, I am sure ((sarcasm)), will carry a lot of weight on this blog.
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Jan 30, 2008 10:33:56 AM
Well, Obama's from Chicago, so he already had the "undead" vote, even before the Carter endorsement.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jan 30, 2008 11:37:22 AM
Two of Carter's comments amused (or disturbed) me:
1) "Obama's campaign has been...titillating for me and my family,"
Uh, okay, I think I might have used a different word, but maybe he's making a play for the sodomite wing of the party?
2) Carter, a onetime governor of Georgia and one of only two Democrats to win the White House in the last forty years, also said he thinks Obama's candidacy could put several southern states in play in a general election match up.
Does he mean the ones where blacks don't normally vote for the Democrats? I think Bill Clinton's pointed ugliness in SC might have been extraordinarily shrewd in that it seems to have started a polarization of the electorate that might ultimately favor his wife and that I think Obama was trying to avoid with his nice-sounding (but nonetheless empty) rhetoric.
Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Jan 30, 2008 11:59:35 AM
>>>I do know that if Mr. Obama is elected president, there is a chance, the slightest of chances, that he may help return the Democratic party to its old and somewhat self-contradictory position as the party of government intervention on behalf of small communities -- and I mean real communities, with all their local and parochial values. I am not saying that such a position is workable. But often reform comes with a look backwards, to see what or whom you've forgotten all about.<<<
...
>>>If I were a betting man, I wouldn't lay a hundred dollars on the possibility that Mr. Obama would try to reconnect his party with the localist and populist strain in it, not to mention the unabashed Christian patriotism. I might bet ten, though. For one reason only: no one could say him nay.<<<
I think Professor Esolen's caught on to something here but I'm not quite sure about it's direction.
I think what Obama holds for a lot of people is something that Hillary and McCain (the presumptive Republican candidate now, no?) don't hold much of and that is the notion of hope. Namely there are many who think or "feel" that Obama might be the man to lead us to think/feel like were making some "real progress" on outstanding, pressing issues by bridging the paralyzing partisanship in Washington and, second, that through his election the nation can take a definitive step to move beyond racial divisiveness.
I, as a registered Democrat, hold the sort of hope that Professor Esolen would wager $10 on Obama possibly addressing, namely that a candidate, perhaps Obama, could come along to help rebalance our attentions between the national, state and local levels (I think we spend way to much attention national issues - such as presidential elections - to the demise of local issues. Why? Among other reasons, our national politics are prepared for us by an entertainment industry; the dearth of which is grossly obvious at any PTA, neighborhood, or city council meeting!). Maybe there is some hope for such an inclination in Obama given his former local work (which provides his "unity" appeal, at least in his language. Having been a former community organizer, I can attest that it takes great skill, patience, and humility to "organize" a community. As to whether organizing south-side Chicago neighborhoods or Congress is easier ....?!) But, I don't know if this is what Obama is really about or if this sort of inclination is really the perview of a President. Given that were still in the primaries, I think the verdict is still out whether Obama could lead the nation and not just push Democratic agendas. I think it would be interesting to see how his campaign would turn once/if he was the nominee.
As for HillBill, I'm in California and get to put in my two sense next Tuesday. If it was tomorrow, I'd vote for Obama, hoping to knock off Hillary (I really don't think we need another 8 years of Clintonia - the last 8, per the above hope(s), didn't really do alot to rebalance our foci, did they?). And if the national election were the next day, I think I'd cross the wire for the first time in my life and vote for McCain. Currently I just don't think Obama could handle Washington; I think he'd get eaten alive. But I might be convinced otherwise 'tween now and Nov.
Anyway, that's my current position. Could change with a good or bad lunch.
PS: are there any other Democrats who read/post to this site or am I the only "crazy one?" Remember all you 'publicans, it takes some sand to make an oyster! ;-)
Posted by: Tim | Jan 30, 2008 12:09:25 PM
"However, it is obvious that we are down to a two-man race between McCain and Romney. I'm not jumping up and down with excitement over either of them and am vacillating between them. As my state's primary is next Tuesday, I'd welcome any arguments for or against those two." - GL
My position exactly, GL. I'm not very happy with a lot of McCain's positions (except his pro-life stance, which, as James Altena has shown, is perhaps the best of the remaining front-runners). But I greatly admire the man. On balance, I still lean toward Romney, but I could support McCain quite strongly, if he turns out to be the Republican candidate. I'm just thankful that Guiliani proved quite early on that he lacks any real political sense. Bye, Rudy!
Posted by: Bill R | Jan 30, 2008 12:44:42 PM
Tim, I'm not a Republican, but I'm even less a Democrat nowadays. I don't hear either of the Democratic candidates saying the sort of things I heard from Huckabee yesterday (in person, here in Jefferson City, Missouri) about getting the federal government off the backs of the States by reducing unfunded mandates. John Edwards seems to be the only candidate who cares (or is the past tense appropriate as of today?)about the economic and environmental problems created by factory farms, but with him it only seems to be one element of a larger position of anti-corporatism that I think goes rather overboard.
As to the sanctity of human life, Tim, I assume you must not be Catholic. Neither am I, but I certainly see the logic and quality of the Catholic position on anti-life politicians. That's pretty much a deal breaker for me there. Even if a Democratic candidate agreed with me on virtually every other issue, if he were anti-life I would question not only his worthiness on that issue but also his intellectual fitness to hold to the rest of his program with integrity.
All that said, I'd probably vote for the first candidate to announce that one of his major priorities would be rebuilding American rail infrastructure and decreasing our reliance on gasoline cars. If he added a major push to increase nuclear power...gosh, it could even be Hillary (if, of course, she could get me to believe her).
As to oysters...as far as I know, all it takes is two oysters. Of course, they apparently trade off roles throughout their lives, but that's a whole different political analogy...:)
Posted by: Ethan C. | Jan 30, 2008 1:26:05 PM
Hi, James.
Here is why I think of Sen. McCain as a pro-abort: http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain_Abortion.htm
Posted by: Matt Karnes | Jan 30, 2008 2:18:51 PM
Matt,
*That's* your evidence that he's *pro*-abortion? I think that a document from 2000 is hardly fair to his positions now. But even if you take it as what they are now, you couldn't call him *pro*-abortion since he obviously has serious reservations about it. You don't prosecute--in a criminal court--somebody (the doctor) who does something if you don't think what they are doing is a crime, no?
Incidentally, that fetal cell research position that is mentioned in that article only applied to work in rodents, not people. I don't object to using mouse stem cells, whether embryonic or adult.
Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Jan 30, 2008 2:35:28 PM
>>>Here is why I think of Sen. McCain as a pro-abort: <<<
I don't believe he voted against banning partial-birth abortions, as this page states. Please show other evidence of it.
As for his unclear statements, remember that John McCain graduated from the Naval Academy second from the bottom of his class. He is more interested in literature than in history or economics, and makes up for his lack of knowledge and lack of interest in many areas by spouting whatever the conventional wisdom (i.e. the liberal line) is at the moment. Repealing Roe would force women to undergo illegal and dangerous operations. Fetal tissue research has helped make progress against Parkinson's disease. Just something he overheard while having a drink with Ted Kennedy.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 30, 2008 2:43:02 PM
>>>All that said, I'd probably vote for the first candidate to announce that one of his major priorities would be rebuilding American rail infrastructure and decreasing our reliance on gasoline cars.<<<
you don't mean "rebuild", you mean build. The U.S., unlike Europe, developed a rail system optimized to move freight, which implies high volume, high latency (the cargo doesn't care that much if it arrives an hour or ten hours lates). In Europe, the rail system is optimized for moving passengers, which means low volume, low latency (you can't move a large a mount of traffic, but it must arrive on time). As a result, in the U.S.. the vast majority of overland cargo moves by rail. In Europe, it moves by truck. More passenger rail means more trucks on our highways.
Of course, you could build a high-speed passenger service in parallel to the existing freight service lines, allowing us to have those nifty bullet trains. But first you have to get funding, then you have to get right of way, environmental impact statements, the whole mishegas. Do you really think that is going to happen? Do you know what it would cost?
I like traveling by train. Do it in Europe all the time, now prefer it to flying, at least for trips up and down the Northeast Corridor. Even took the train to Chicago this summer, rather than fly. But I am a realist. I would never have done it if I had been required to actually PAY for my trip. But thanks to generous AMTRAC subsidies (amounting to something like $1500 per passenger), it was only moderately more expensive than air travel.
Finally, you need to take into consideration that Americans LOVE cars, love the freedom of movement they convey, as well as their convenience and flexibility. Build your rail system--Americans will keep driving cars, because America is not Europe, a little butt-end of a continent full of little postage-stamp countries whose people live and die within 50 km of the place they were born. We're not Europeans, by a long shot.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 30, 2008 3:52:24 PM
Judy,
One of the most talented and intelligent officers I knew on active duty was the "goat" of his class at West Point - he finished at the bottom of his class. That and based on the other WPers I knew (many), academic performance at the Academy is a poor indicator of a man's ability throughout his life or his ability to function as a good leader. Also remember, low class placement at a service academy, is still at a service academy, some of the most difficult educational institutions in the country to gain admittance to.
As for the rest of the statement about where Sen. McCain gets his idea, it sounds ridiculous. How did you come to learn this? Hang out with him much?
Posted by: Steve Kostoff | Jan 30, 2008 3:53:48 PM
"He is more interested in literature than in history or economics"
Well, that settles it. I think I'll be voting for McCain! ;-D
Posted by: maggie | Jan 30, 2008 4:29:45 PM
"As for his unclear statements, remember that John McCain graduated from the Naval Academy second from the bottom of his class."
One of my son's dearest friends just finished the Academy, and we had the chance to learn what is required just to graduate from the USNA. I'm convinced that anyone graduating at the "bottom" of a USNA class surpasses in intelligence and capabilities most of those who graduate at the "top" of classes in most non-military schools. The USNA, after all, still has standards.
Posted by: Bill R | Jan 30, 2008 4:32:28 PM
Judy: You are correct; that site had the meaning of a "yes" vote on the partial-birth abortion ban backwards.
Posted by: James Kabala | Jan 30, 2008 4:38:21 PM
Steve K, what is ridiculous about saying McCain is full of the conventional wisdom? Most people are. And by saying he was second to the bottom, I do not mean that he is stupid, for obviously he is not. I mean that studying did not come high on his list of priorities. I haven't hung out with him much personally, but my husband shared living quarters with him for a while and knows a bit about him.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 30, 2008 6:52:36 PM
Dear GL,
To answer your question about a possible (not certain) shift by McCain on ESC, read the National Review Online article to which I posted a link.
Matt,
I can only thank Gene for responding first on my behalf. As I noted, I don't entirely agree with the NRO author that McCain's record has been 100% perfect on abortion. But the few times where he has erred were eight or more yeas ago, and his overall record for over two decades is staunchly pro-life. Only someone with an incredibly extreme and narrow notion of pro-life criteria could pretend otherwise. Please read an entire record instead of cherry-picking the isolated exception.
James Kabala,
Thanks again for your input. I was very vaguely given to understand that McCain may have voted against the partial-birth abortion ban the first time it came up, but then switched and has voted for it every time ever since. It should also be remembered that (shades of the recent debate in S. Dakota) some pro-life people initially voted against the measure because they believe it would not pass constitutional muster and that the measure would backfire politically and result in a strengthened Roe v. Wade. (Whether that was McCain's reasoning if he did cast such a vote, I don't know.) While I would reject that argument, it does point up that in reviewing a voting record, it is often not enough to know the vote cast; one must also know the reasoning behind the casting of the vote.
This also links up with a question that arose regarding a post I made on a previous thread. There I spoke of the need to look for a candidate whose moral character and fundamental values on key positions were sound, and to be prepared a) to live with disagreement with him on secondary issues, and b) to work with that fudnamental soundness to convert him away from error to truth on secondary issues. I believe that McCain's stance on abortion may be a good case in point. His basic instincts and values are right. And, as the NRO article indicates, he also talks to the right people and is open to rethinking specific applications.
Whereas the veracity of Romney's current pro-life cconvictions is untested, McCain's are well tested, and his pattern of voting (particulary if there was a reversal from a one-time initial error on partial birth abortion) suggests a trend toward increasing soundness. The recent breakthroughs on stem-cell technology blessedly may be taking that issue effectively off the table. But I also think and pray (though it is a hope and not a certainty) that McCain is also subject to the right influences here, and that he can be and is being moved even further in the right direction on the ESC issue as well. Think of the late conversion on abortion of Zell Miller of Georgia, for which the media heaped so much scorn on him.
Jduy,
A special commendation to you for coming to McCain's defense despite him not being your candidate. You are always a class act.
-----------
To some degree I can echo Bill's statement about admiring the man more than agreeing with all of his positions. (I might agree with more of them than my good friend Bill does, but we'd have to sit down and go over those point by point.) But at this juncture I'm set to support McCain for the following reasons:
a) He is quite sound on the most critical issues -- abortion, Iraq, the war on terorism.
b) I consider those issues more important than various economic issues, or McCain-Feingold or immigration. Not that those are not important; but they are clearly secondary to the issues in a).
c) While I disagree with some of McCain's specific positions on economic issues, they clearly are more sound and less naive and hopelessly ill-informed than many of those held by Huckabee (who, as folks here on MC know, attracted my possible support at one point)
d) Unlike Romney, McCain is not at best an unknown quantity on the key issues I cited in a). I don't have to go as far as suspecting Romeny of political opportunism or pandering on e.g. abortion, as some do; I hope his conversion (like that of Zell Miller) is total and sincere. But I'm not inclined to buy a pig in a poke, and risk getting a nasty David Souter style suprise at the end.
e) He is a sustantive man of proven courage, integrity, and conviction. Whatever my secondary disagreements with him, that is something we desperately need in the Oval Office.
f) Although Romeny has addressed the issue of his Mormonism quite well in his major speech on the subject, I believe that (along with his too recent changes on too many issues without a supporting track record) it constitutes too much negative baggage for him to be competitive in November.
g) While I have previously stated that I consider this only a tactical point rather than one of principle, which should not override the latter, numerous polls (for what little those maybe worth) repeatedly show that McCain is the only Republican candidate who beats either Hillary or Obama. He has more appeal to independents and Democrats willng to cross strict party lines (which the primary results have also indicated).
h) Also somewhat surprisingly but interestingly, McCain has not only attracted by far the largest number of newspaper editorial endorsements for a Republican candidate, but the "mavrick" is also the one gaining the greatest number of endorsements from established party figures, including competitors such as Brownback and (it appears likely) Giuliani and Thompson. He apprently gets along well personally with Huckabee and even Ron Paul. This suggests that McCain, unlike Romney or Huckabee, is the candidate around which the Republican Party cn most effectively and enthusiastically unify.
McCain is not my ideal candidate. There hasn't been such for me for several elections. But he is a quite acceptable candidate, and a man of proven valor, virtue, and experience. He represents a better combination of pluses and minuses than any of his competitors.
If McCain is the Republican nominee, I suspect he would have an easier time against Hillary than against Obama, as the latter would be able to play off his mantra of age vs. youth, the past vs. the future, with McCain trying to counter on a "tried, tested, and experienced" theme. Which, while speculative, may paradoxically be another reason to prefer Hillary to Obama on the Democratic side.
However, I wouldn't consider this election decided yet on the Republican side by any means. And while McCain is now my preferred choice, I urge each person here to vote on the basis of principle for the candidate he believes best represents the interests of the country, regardless of putative electability. As the old saw has it, it's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 7:13:30 PM
>>> I haven't hung out with him much personally, but my husband shared living quarters with him for a while and knows a bit about him.<<<
For what it's worth, Grandpa McCain, who was Bill Halsey's carrier commander, was not know as one of the more cerebral admirals. Daddy McCain was a decent sub driver who rose to flag rank in the peacetime Navy, and thus was never really tested in the fire of higher command in wartime. Our present Senator McCain was certainly no rocket scientist at Annapolis, and had a reputation as something of a spoiled brat. Evidently, he matured in combat, but for him the war was mainly a test of character, not brains. McCain strikes me as someone not prone to systematic thinking on major issues, but rather someone who relies on his instincts. In areas with which he is familiar, his instincts are often quite good. In other areas, not so much. Thus, McCain's whole approach to campaign finance reform can hardly stand up to rigorous analysis, but because he is, in this instant, consonant with the Zeitgeist, he gets a pass. The fact that he was able and willing to commit himself wholeheartedly to support of the surge and winning the war in Iraq demonstrates his moral courage and the soundness of his judgment in areas where he has some personal experience. On the other hand, his whole attitude towards interrogation of prisoners shows how he can let those personal experiences interfere with sound judgment.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 30, 2008 7:21:07 PM
"I was very vaguely given to understand that McCain may have voted against the partial-birth abortion ban the first time it came up, but then switched and has voted for it every time ever since."
The idea that he was ever against it is unquestionably wrong. At least, he never voted against it. Who knows what he might have said privately when the bill was under discussion.
I (subjectively) don't get the impression that abortion is a high priority for McCain, though. I could easily see him bumbling his way into appointing another Kennedy or even another Souter. Given Romney's past, of course, Mitt is probably just as likely to do the same.
Posted by: James Kabala | Jan 30, 2008 7:42:38 PM
I think that Stuart makes a suggestive analysis of McCain's strengths and weaknesses in temperament -- though a person willing to stand up as he has on Iraq and abortion does not blindly go along with the Zeitgeist. Along with James K's latest comment, the key thing may be to pray for the right circle of advisors and cabinet members around McCain, to foster his better instincts and fill in for his deficiencies. But I do think the basic core is sound.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 8:00:54 PM
"I, as a registered Democrat. . . ."
Tim, the confessional is supposed to be private! :-)
In a Bible Study at my parish some years ago, the lesson was on the sinful woman who anointed Jesus' feet at the supper of Simon the Pharisee. Fr. Ousley asked what would be present-day criteria for a woman to be a notorious sinner. Suggestions included being a prostitute, drug addict, convicted thief, etc. I brought down the house when I raised my hand and said:
"AAANNNDDD ... A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT!!!"
No one laughed harder than a good friend, our then token parish liberal, seated immediately to my right.
Posted by: James A. Altena | Jan 30, 2008 8:16:01 PM
I think Stuart is right on. And I think McCain does go along with the Zeitgeist in areas that he doesn't care much about. This is a guy who has spent his whole life getting a paycheck from the government; he went right from the Navy to being elected to the House of Representatives. (He said a few days ago that his "patriotic" motives for his life's work are better than Romney's motives in working to get rich. That is, being a government employee is more noble than working in the private sector. That sent chills down my spine and also provokied the though that it helps if you have a rich wife.) So for the past 26 years his work associates have been members of Congress. It's only natural that he would pick up the attitudes of his colleagues in areas he doesn't feel like thinking about, and many of his friends are liberal senators. John Kerry considered choosing him for his running mate, and it isn't clear whether he asked him or not. McCain is, as someone else has said, basically a Scoop Jackson Democrat -- conservative on defense and foreign policy, liberal on everything else (except abortion).
That said, however, I can say neither that he is my candidate nor that he is not my candidate, as I have as many problems with Romney, just different ones. Right now, I have no candidate.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 30, 2008 8:27:27 PM
>>>Right now, I have no candidate.<<<
We have this now in common, Judy and Stuart, our candidates fizzled. In my case it was Thompson and in yours Rudy. They both fizzled for the same reason: they didn't seem to care that much, when it counted, whether they became president or not. Neither appears to have the fire in his belly.
So now we have a Christian Democrat (Huckabee), a Republicrat (McCain) and a Democan (Romney). The former is only hanging around for the honor of it as far as I can tell and only the latter two are really in the running. What I can't figure out is why Rush is so down on McCain vis-a-vis Romney. Romney was a more liberal governor than McCain has been a liberal senator. Reagan is dead, the Bushes blew it, and the GOP is left without a conservative leader. Like Obama and the Kennedy's, I sense change in the air, but in my case, I'm holding my nose.
Posted by: GL | Jan 30, 2008 9:14:40 PM
"In my case it was Thompson and in yours Rudy. They both fizzled for the same reason: they didn't seem to care that much, when it counted, whether they became president or not. Neither appears to have the fire in his belly."
An interesting analysis of this idea can be found at the following site:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/649xhmla.asp?pg=1
Posted by: Wordlover | Jan 30, 2008 9:25:35 PM
I also agree that McCain gets way too much flack. He's not the best pro-life candidate in the race, I give that to Huckabee dispite his other failings.
As for Ron Paul and the constitution, we've been over this. Ron Paul has read the constitution but I'm not sure he understands it. I will refer, for the second time, to the powers of the navy granted the president. The navy has historically, and especially at the time of the signing, been a quick interdiction force. Countries used the navy without formal declarations of war all the time. This allowed things like the confrontation with the Barbary Pirates to work out swimmingly. I'd love to have dinner with Mr. Paul, he seems like an affable fellow. To believe that he's presidential material or has some in depth knowledge of economics (laughable) or the constitution (very questionable) is ludicrous.
Posted by: Nick | Jan 30, 2008 9:54:33 PM
James,
BTW I just did a search for your Fr. Ousley since I was interested in reading something from him since you talk of him with such enthusiasm. You should try out for the role of PR agent. Two of the top three Google listings all link back to your postings.
Posted by: Nick | Jan 30, 2008 9:57:04 PM
Finally, you need to take into consideration that Americans LOVE cars, love the freedom of movement they convey, as well as their convenience and flexibility. Build your rail system--Americans will keep driving cars, because America is not Europe, a little butt-end of a continent full of little postage-stamp countries whose people live and die within 50 km of the place they were born. We're not Europeans, by a long shot.
Totally off topic, but it's a pet notion of mine. I'd like to the the US get to the population densities typical in Europe. That's surely the only way it'll keep its place in the world.
As a by-product of that future demographic success, Americans will learn to love a good rail (or other shared transport) system...mark my words!
Posted by: bonobo | Jan 30, 2008 10:30:57 PM
This isn't really as shameless a plug for my blog as it seems, but I did analyze one of Sen. Obama's speeches back in March and I think I explain why so many people who are not liberals or Democrats are attracted to him. If you are interested you can read it here: http://rub-a-dub.blogspot.com/2007/03/obama-homiletics.html
FYI: You McCain supporters have gone a long way toward convincing me to vote for him if he wins the GOP Nomination. But I still have two things against him: McCain-Feingold and the S&L crises (AKA Keiting 5). I think McCain-Feingold is a direct assault on the 1st Ammendment. I realize the McCain isn't responsible for the ugly blue Washington Mutual signs that denigrate the beauty of the historical mosaics on the old Home Savings of America buildings, but every time I see one of those signs I amreminded of McCain putting pressure on the investigators at the FHLBB. Those WAMU signs are like big "DON'T VOTE FOR McCain" signs.
Of course, I am still going door-to-door for Dr.Paul until after the California primary. For 20 years I've hoped for a candidate who would say the things he says.
Posted by: Matt Karnes | Jan 31, 2008 2:15:55 AM
This isn't really as shameless a plug for my blog as it seems, but I did analyze one of Sen. Obama's speeches back in March and I think I explain why so many people who are not liberals or Democrats are attracted to him. If you are interested you can read it here: http://rub-a-dub.blogspot.com/2007/03/obama-homiletics.html
FYI: You McCain supporters have gone a long way toward convincing me to vote for him if he wins the GOP Nomination. But I still have two things against him: McCain-Feingold and the S&L crises (AKA Keiting 5). I think McCain-Feingold is a direct assault on the 1st Ammendment. I realize the McCain isn't responsible for the ugly blue Washington Mutual signs that denigrate the beauty of the historical mosaics on the old Home Savings of America buildings, but every time I see one of those signs I amreminded of McCain putting pressure on the investigators at the FHLBB. Those WAMU signs are like big "DON'T VOTE FOR McCain" signs.
Of course, I am still going door-to-door for Dr.Paul until after the California primary. For 20 years I've hoped for a candidate who would say the things he says.
Posted by: Matt Karnes | Jan 31, 2008 2:17:42 AM
>>> I'd like to the the US get to the population densities typical in Europe. That's surely the only way it'll keep its place in the world.<<<
When you speak of population densities in Europe, you have to be careful. The high density countries are the vest-pocket low countries, win which density is a factor of their position twixt France and Germany on one side, and the sea on the other. With flat population growth (even including immigration), those densities will fall.
Elsewhere in Western Europe, we encounter high URBAN densities, but the rapid depopulation of the countryside means that these places are full of empty space. In Britain, for example, one can drive for hours through Wales, the north counties and Scotland without encountering very many people (lots of sheep, though).
The situation is much the same in Germany, France and Italy--islands of density amidst an ocean of rural emptiness.
When one gets to Russia, of course, you see the situation taken to its extreme: most of the population lives in a handful of dreadfully overcrowded cities, while the countryside is a desert--a rapidly emptying desert. And that's not counting Siberia.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 5:31:08 AM
>>>Of course, I am still going door-to-door for Dr.Paul until after the California primary. For 20 years I've hoped for a candidate who would say the things he says.<<<
You remind me of the woman who walked up to Adlai Stevenson and said, "Sir, you have the vote of every intelligent person in America", to which Stevenson responded, "That won't do, madam. I need a majority".
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 5:33:45 AM
>>>As a by-product of that future demographic success, Americans will learn to love a good rail (or other shared transport) system...mark my words!<<<
By the way, Europeans for the most part loathe their train systems, not the least because their railway workers are always going on strike. Within cities that have them, people do use subways to get around, but the London Tube is a horror, the Paris Metro is dangerous, the Rome subway has three or four stops on its two lines. The Brussels Metro, consisting of an underground and a light rail system, doesn't go where it is needed and runs sporadically (at least it was sporadic last week). Only in Moscow does one find a subway system that lives up to the ideal--clean, efficient, safe and cheap. Of course, the government keeps it running as the kind of showcase it was intended to be by its creator, Josef Stalin.
Against that, try riding a Russian train between, say, Petersburg and Moscow, or even from Novgorod to Petersburg. Think of the train scenes from Dr. Zhivago.
On the other hand, there are plenty of cars in Europe. European cities are chockablock with cars precisely because people won't take mass transit. Cars are also more popular than trains for inter-city transit, especially when one has restricted motorways such as the German Autobahn that let you zoom along at 100 mph (160 kph for you Europhiles).
Europeans drive as much as Americans, despite gas prices of 1.47 Euros per Liter (that 5.55 Euros per gallon, or $8.16 per gallon at today's exchange rate). The main difference is their propensity for chihuahua-sized sub-sub compacts that they drive like demented grand prix racers on crack (I have trouble getting used to the idea that three cars can occupy the same space at the same time), whereas Americans, who prefer to stretch out a bit on their longer rides, drive decent sized automobiles that do not sacrifice comfort, stowage, performance and safety on the altar of high mileage.
And don't get me started on Vespas and moped!
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 5:45:17 AM
Greg, I had actually become a Thompson supporter, though as lukewarmly as I had been a Giuliani supporter. With the current choices, I might stay home on primary day, which in Maryland is February 12, the first time in my voting life that I will have missed an election. Once the Republicans have an nominee, though, I will campaign for him enthusiastically, since whoever is nominated will be far preferable to either Clinton or Obama.
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 31, 2008 7:49:09 AM
"With the current choices, I might stay home on primary day, which in Maryland is February 12..."
The despot's heel is at thy door, Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland!
...and the later lines:
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb-
Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
(The only state song, to my knowledge, which actually includes the word "scum"...is that what proximity to DC does?)
"Once the Republicans have an nominee, though, I will campaign for him enthusiastically..."
Come! for thy dalliance does thee wrong,
Maryland!
Come to thine own anointed throng,
Stalking with Liberty along,
And chaunt thy dauntless slogan song,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Posted by: Joe Long | Jan 31, 2008 8:09:46 AM
>>>Greg, I had actually become a Thompson supporter, though as lukewarmly as I had been a Giuliani supporter. <<<
So had I--because Fred was the only candidate who demonstrated as much contempt for the entire process as I have.
Beyond that, Thompson ran precisely the kind of campaign people said they wanted--dignified, issue-oriented, avoiding personality and character assasination. And what did the electorate say? BORING!!!
As for those who say we should sit out this one because four years of Clinton-Obama (or Obama-Clinton) will be good for us, that's pretty much akin to German Jews sitting out the 1933 plebescite because four years of Nazi rule will show everybody how good the Weimar government really was. Maybe so, but really cold comfort in the end.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 8:13:17 AM
When you speak of population densities in Europe, you have to be careful.
Nah, it's simple math. US population at EU average density is 1.2bn Americans. Keep 'em coming! :)
Posted by: bonobo | Jan 31, 2008 8:13:26 AM
>>>Nah, it's simple math. US population at EU average density is 1.2bn Americans. Keep 'em coming! :)<<<
As I said, densities are AVERAGE. Look at the actual situation, and you find that Europeans live like rats in the cities, and increasingly behave like them. Thanks, I like our low densities just fine.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 8:15:47 AM
>>>The despot's heel is at thy door, Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland!<<<
As I remember it, about as many Marylanders flocked to the Confederate banner as will vote for Ron Paul next Tuesday.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 8:21:25 AM
"...I did analyze one of Sen. Obama's speeches back in March and I think I explain why so many people who are not liberals or Democrats are attracted to him."
Optimist! You think non-leftists attracted to him have EVER heard even one of his speeches? They evaluate on sound-bites, a pleasant appearance, and their own subconscious absorption of the zeitgeist.
Posted by: Joe Long | Jan 31, 2008 8:31:58 AM
>>Within cities that have them, people do use subways to get around, but the London Tube is a horror,<<
Has this changed since 2000? I rode it a little (between Heathrow and the theater district) and that portion seemed like an amusement park ride for kiddies at the time.
>>
Against that, try riding a Russian train between, say, Petersburg and Moscow, or even from Novgorod to Petersburg. Think of the train scenes from Dr. Zhivago.<<
I did the train from Irkutsk to Chita (and back!) with a stop in Ulan Ude and really enjoyed it. Being barked at by the little grannies is a hoot.
>>>The main difference is their propensity for chihuahua-sized sub-sub compacts that they drive like demented grand prix racers on crack (I have trouble getting used to the idea that three cars can occupy the same space at the same time), <<<
The Russians are NUTS! I will have to send you one of my stories about riding with the Russian surgeon in Irkutsk. Maniac!
Posted by: Bobby Winters | Jan 31, 2008 9:36:51 AM
>>>Beyond that, Thompson ran precisely the kind of campaign people said they wanted--dignified, issue-oriented, avoiding personality and character assasination. And what did the electorate say? BORING!!!<<<
I agree 100% with that and have thought the same. But an actor, of all people, should know that what Americans say they want and what they really want are two different things.
I have made my decision on how to vote and as we have early voting in Tennessee, I plan to vote today for Mike Huckabee. I know he can't win the nomination and, if he did, would lose the general election, but as Tennessee allocates delegates based on a proportional basis and as he is the only fully pro-life candidate with significant support (he had 24% in the latest Tennessee poll, higher than any remaining candidate), and has been endorsed by Tennessee Right to Life in light of Thompson's withdraw, I am giving him support so that, perhaps, he can influence the party platform on life issues and, perhaps, be considered for the veep nod by McCain. If not him, perhaps he will be able to push for some other strongly pro-life Republican for veep. A strong, 100% pro-life veep candidate in the fall will make it somewhat easier to hold my nose and do what I must in November. (I should note that were Tennessee a winner take all state (which it should be), I likely would not do this.)
Posted by: GL | Jan 31, 2008 9:47:56 AM
Apparently the Kennedy decision not to support Hillary goes back further than this week. See http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/analysis/toons/2008/01/28/mitchell/
Posted by: GL | Jan 31, 2008 10:20:15 AM
"Greg, I had actually become a Thompson supporter, though as lukewarmly as I had been a Giuliani supporter. With the current choices, I might stay home on primary day, which in Maryland is February 12, the first time in my voting life that I will have missed an election."
Judy, I'm contemplating using my primary vote for Thompson, whose name I believe will still be on the ballot. A show of residual support for a withdrawn candidate might encourage the winner to consider him for vice president. If McCain and Romney are as malleable as some of you are indicating, then Fred's conservative influence would be a very good thing.
Diane
Posted by: wordlover | Jan 31, 2008 10:30:22 AM
>>>Has this changed since 2000? I rode it a little (between Heathrow and the theater district) and that portion seemed like an amusement park ride for kiddies at the time.<<<
The Brits apparently think so. The deteriorating condition of the Underground was a major political issue over the last few months.
>>.I did the train from Irkutsk to Chita (and back!) with a stop in Ulan Ude and really enjoyed it. Being barked at by the little grannies is a hoot.<<<
Now imagine having to do it not as a tourist, but over and over because your livelihood depends on it.
>>>The Russians are NUTS! I will have to send you one of my stories about riding with the Russian surgeon in Irkutsk. Maniac!<<<
They're all maniacs--French, Germans, italians, Belgians. The main difference is the Germans are scrupulous about staying to the right and passing on the left.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 10:51:58 AM
>>>"I, as a registered Democrat. . . ."
Tim, the confessional is supposed to be private! :-)<<<
James, thanks for the warning! While I suspect many of you all think I'm a flaming liberal, here in SF I feel like (and am considered) a flaming conservative! Suppose that shows the geographical relativity of labels, what? I've always thought of myself as a conservative Democrat. It seems it's getting harder and harder to see much of that formerly quite substantial part of the party anymore. In its' absence I guess you all are the next best thing! ;-)
Posted by: Tim | Jan 31, 2008 10:54:04 AM
Tim,
For what it's worth, I'm probably a flaming liberal in regards to the general MC crowd. Like you, I live on the heathen west coast: Seattle. However, unlike you, I'm not a registered member of any party. Call it a sin of omission to your sin of comission.
Posted by: Michael | Jan 31, 2008 12:13:42 PM
So we are agreed that, liberal or conservative, people on the West Coast are all flaming?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 12:41:47 PM
>>>The despot's heel is at thy door, Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland!<<<
Joe, at this point in history the despot's heel is on our necks. We're one of the most oppressed, taxes, socialist states in the Union, and those of us in western Maryland are openly despised by those in power. (We own guns, and they don't like that.)
Posted by: Judy Warner | Jan 31, 2008 12:53:42 PM
> Beyond that, Thompson ran precisely the kind of campaign people said they wanted--dignified, issue-oriented,
> avoiding personality and character assasination. And what did the electorate say? BORING!!!
Which was really sad. I *believe* he's still on the Californian ballot though. If so I'll be either voting for him or...I know...I know...Huckabee. I agree that residual support might push him into a VP post, but at his age I'm a little worried about that since he probably would have to retire. It might do the country good though to have another strong VP.
Posted by: Nick | Jan 31, 2008 1:16:45 PM
>>>So we are agreed that, liberal or conservative, people on the West Coast are all flaming?<<<
He, he, he ... good one Centurion!
Posted by: Tim | Jan 31, 2008 2:06:15 PM
We have to be realistic about Fred as a VP candidate. If McCain is on the top of the ticket, he'll have to have someone who is younger in the second slot. Can you imagine what the Dems would do running against a 71-year-old man and a man who looks as care-worn as Thompson, with whispers of both of their histories with cancer being circulated? If Romney wins the nod, then perhaps Thompson could be #2, but if it is McCain, there is no way that's going to happen. It will either be Huckabee or someone who did not run at all for the top of the ticket.
Posted by: GL | Jan 31, 2008 2:12:43 PM
>>I agree that residual support might push him into a VP post, but at his age I'm a little worried about that since he probably would have to retire.<<
Tell that to Dick Cheney. Or the likely Republican president, McCain. Both have years on Thompson. I'm partial to Huckabee. That sort of idealism with a strong VP and a core of advisors looks promising. Besides, we forget that to win the office takes politicking, but the office itself is executive in nature. The president's ability to actually get his visions enacted--be they naive or not--is only measured by his likeability within the legislature. That's why Huckabee, despite being a "Christian Democrat," is so very votable. We need to compromise on some issues, at least until I can brainwash someone over 35 to run for President on my platform.
Stuart, flaming...I prefer to think of myself as on fire.
Posted by: Michael | Jan 31, 2008 2:17:49 PM
>>> If McCain is on the top of the ticket, he'll have to have someone who is younger in the second slot. <<<
Fred is younger.
>>> Can you imagine what the Dems would do running against a 71-year-old man and a man who looks as care-worn as Thompson, with whispers of both of their histories with cancer being circulated?<<<
Ever wonder why, after a young pope, the College of Cardinals almost always elects an octogenarian? Could it have something to do with getting to choose again in their own lifetimes?
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 2:20:30 PM
>>>Fred is younger.<<<
I meant younger than Fred, not younger than McCain. He'll need someone in his (or her) 40s and 50s and who has a good health record.
Posted by: GL | Jan 31, 2008 2:26:41 PM
>>>I meant younger than Fred, not younger than McCain. He'll need someone in his (or her) 40s and 50s and who has a good health record.<<<
I look at Fred's wife, and have all the evidence I need that his ticker is working just fine.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 2:37:17 PM
>>I look at Fred's wife, and have all the evidence I need that his ticker is working just fine.<<
Let's not confuse his heart with the combination of his Y chromosome and decent eyesight.
Posted by: Michael | Jan 31, 2008 2:41:29 PM
The deed is done. I have voted. Now I can get ready to complain about the outcome. ;-)
Posted by: GL | Jan 31, 2008 2:49:46 PM
>>>Let's not confuse his heart with the combination of his Y chromosome and decent eyesight.<<<
I get the impression that Fred does more than just look. They do, after all, have a young child.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 4:29:36 PM
As I said, densities are AVERAGE. Look at the actual situation, and you find that Europeans live like rats in the cities, and increasingly behave like them. Thanks, I like our low densities just fine.
Stuart,
Your comment about "ittle postage-stamp countries" marked you out as a patriot (no doubt of the best kind).
But now I'm confused. Do you want the US to follow Europe into demographic decline? Or do you prefer stasis? Neither wish strikes me as very patriotic...
Posted by: bonobo | Jan 31, 2008 4:31:53 PM
Bonobo,
I'll take a pot shot at answering that question even though its directed at another. Either demographic decline or rise doesn't have anything to do with religiosity. The method of that decline or rise does. If half the population retired to monasteries right now an led saintly lives I imagine we would both be happy. However, under your definition, the resultant decline in population would be unpatriotic.
Stuart,
You're doing a fine job of convincing me to vote for him anyway. I needed the moral support.
Posted by: Nick | Jan 31, 2008 4:40:18 PM
>>I get the impression that Fred does more than just look. They do, after all, have a young child.<<
To true, sir. My only point was "tak[ing] one look at Fred's wife" to get "all the evidence [you] need" has to go a bit beyond observing his wife. It had to, of course, include the child. I, like you, am under the impression that Mr. Thompson is none the worse for wear, as it were.
Posted by: Michael | Jan 31, 2008 4:46:37 PM
Either demographic decline or rise doesn't have anything to do with religiosity.
Nick, I'm not with you. What was that about religiosity?
Posted by: bonobo | Jan 31, 2008 4:49:04 PM
>>>But now I'm confused. Do you want the US to follow Europe into demographic decline? Or do you prefer stasis? Neither wish strikes me as very patriotic...<<<
I want organic growth, neither forced nor constrained. I do not consider high population densities to be desirable--they lead to all sorts of social pathologies, and at the very least, require a degree of social control and government interference which is incompatible with the American concept of liberty. If you have population densities as in Europe, you will have governments as in Europe. And the more time I spend in Europe, the less I like it.
Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Jan 31, 2008 5:22:07 PM
If you have population densities as in Europe, you will have governments as in Europe
And that's where I disagree with you. The population will grow: the US is not thereby forced to have whatever about European governments you find most objectionable. (Is it federalism, BTW? I genuinely dislike that in Europe, but it's curiously not such a bad thing in the States).
Posted by: bonobo | Jan 31, 2008 5:34:24 PM
"The main difference is the Germans are scrupulous about staying to the right and passing on the left."
Not that that helps. Some years ago I traveled by car from Stuttgart to Nuremberg with a relative who was a friggin' DRIVING INSTRUCTOR. My heart nearly gave out--at age 19! These Europeans all drive on crack....
"So we are agreed that, liberal or conservative, people on the West Coast are all flaming?"
We're just hot. Your're just jealous.
Posted by: Bill R | Jan 31, 2008 6:02:59 PM
Some years ago I traveled by car from Stuttgart to Nuremberg with a relative who was a friggin' DRIVING INSTRUCTOR. My heart nearly gave out--at age 19!
Bill R, I was in Germany also at age 19, being driven by a young lady who otherwise was as quiet as a mouse. The German attitude to speed limits on die Autobahnen is difficult to comprehend but its effects are simple: they drive as if there aren't any.
Posted by: bonobo | Jan 31, 2008 6:17:06 PM
>>>they drive as if there aren't any.<<<
There AREN'T any. That's what makes it the Autobahn. Hitler's last laugh.





