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February 22, 2008
Suffering the Little Children
I have often felt guilty at being perturbed by the noise of children during the sermon. The crying of infants, and worse, the talking of older children, makes me think unfriendly thoughts about their rude parents--rude in the sense of uninstructed, or even, in some cases, as committing a deliberate affront by way of making some kind of “statement.” I am aware of the importance of having children in God’s house, to learn its ways and to receive instruction, more than cognizant of our Lord’s instruction to allow the little children to come to him, and of his rebuke to his disciples that would prevent it.
The essential question, though, has to do with a church’s choice, not immediately related to this mandate, about how the ministry of the Word is to be carried out in the congregation. If there is to be a sermon that is a reasoned discourse of some length that requires close, meditative attention, it is also necessary to have an atmosphere relatively free of distracting noise--human noises, since they are heavy with human meaning, being the most distracting of all.
A baby cries to alert its mother to its needs, and when people hear a child in need, not only virtue, but the race’s fundamental sense of self-preservation cannot help but recognize it as a concern that needs tending to before listening to words, even good words--for the ears that are made for hearing must be preserved. Thus the terrible dissonance thrown up at an almost autonomic level by a baby crying during a sermon. I think it best resolved by having the mother take the child from the room and care for it elsewhere.
I remember a graduate school where the high admissions standards and intense competition made its library a place where much hard intellectual labor was carried on. Mind you, its patrons were members of a generation (mine) that constantly preached freedom from restraint, “doing one’s own thing,” as a fundamental human right--a clamorous, infantile, superficial generation, idiotic in the original sense of the term. Thus it was also a supremely self-centered generation, always attentive to its own best interests, so that when a library in which one could concentrate intently on difficult material was understood as having a direct connection to its users’ academic survival and professional future, no wizened nanny of a traditionalist librarian was needed to keep it quiet. The flower children enforced it all by themselves, as anyone who decided that the reading tables were good places for a conversation, even a whispered one, quickly discovered. A fortiori, one would think, in a place where what is being said is discerned by the hearers as intimately connected with the soul’s salvation.
One can solve this problem as many churches have by reducing the sermon to a brief, piddling moralism, or a long drone (or holler) of predictable, pre-approved cliches. The worth of these is not diminished by any amount of noise, and the kiddies might as well strike up dwarf-bands in the aisles. In churches that have sermons worth hearing by people of adult understanding, though, I am for bringing children into the service at certain points and dismissing them at others, telling them that cannot stay for the whole until they are old enough quietly to pay attention. This treats them as the catechumens they are, and gives them an adult privilege at which to aim.
Posted by S. M. Hutchens at 10:17 AM | Permalink
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A small quibble: for those of us who practice infant baptism, such children are not catechumens (that term referring to those receiving pre-baptismal instruction); they are more properly referred to as neophytes (at least that's how it is in the Roman tradition).
I have often struggled with this. On the one hand, I recognize that children can be a distraction (I've personally taken my own out of the pews on any number of occasions, even taking them all the way to the car if need be to calm them down). On the other hand, I believe that all the baptized, regardless of age or ability to understand, have a place in the congregation as members of the Body of Christ. If not, what are the limits? If we remove the children, should we also remove adults with developmental handicaps who cannot control their vocalizations? The woman with Alzheimer's who snores through the homily?
The best solution I've found is prayer: specifically, praying before the liturgy for the patience to endure my children and to set a godly example for them during the service. This has worked remarkably well.
Posted by: JSullivan | Feb 22, 2008 10:46:53 AM
I'm another from the Roman tradition and the father of 8.
For us, Mass is not primarily about the homily (sermon). The homily, as a part of the Liturgy of the Word/Mass of Catechumens is a preparation for the big event, the Liturgy of the Eucharist/Mass of the Faithful.
One reason why dismissing the children for the homily seems strange is that even if a large portion of the children were catechumens instead of neophytes, it would be at variance with tradition to dismiss them for a portion of the Mass of the Catechumens and then bring them back for the Mass of the Faithful.
What would make matters worse, is that the most disruptive children are typically the younger ones who would have to leave with a parent. Often, it is the parents of young children who really need the spiritual nourishment and encouragemnt that is the fruit of good preaching. They need to be told on occaision from someone in authority that the sacrifices they are making to bring new life into the world are pleasing to God. But if my wife left at the homily with all of our children under 3 every Sunday, that would mean that she would not have heard any preaching for a decade.
Posted by: ben | Feb 22, 2008 12:13:48 PM
I heard a priest say once that the crying of infants was the singing of angels... our fallen nature only perceives it to be a nuisance. While my imagination isn't quite that strong, I must heartily disagree that we cordon off the children who hinder us to come to Jesus. I've taken my children out of mass (yes, another Catholic here) many times when they've been willfully disruptive, but that was a teaching moment, not a segregation.
Give me a crying baby over a cell phone (or a beeping Gameboy!) anyday. We can't eliminate all distractions. If we did, only God would remain. Jesus' Body is us. All of us. And if it isn't, it should be.
Posted by: Laura K | Feb 22, 2008 12:23:42 PM
In my former evangelical church, virtually all younger people were "missing in action," due to an extensive childcare/Sunday School system. This had the advantage of a relatively quiet service, but the extreme disadvantage of failing to integrate children (and even adolescents and young adults) into the service. My own children dislike the traditional evangelical service today because it isn't "geared to them." As a result, both have left mainstream evangelicalism for emergent churches, more like the "youth groups" to which they became acclimated in adolescence.
In my present Lutheran church, all children remain through the Liturgy of the Word up to the point of the sermon, at which time the younger children are escorted by an elder or deacon to "children's church," where they stay during the sermon and the Liturgy of the Sacrament. But past a certain age (somewhere in the middle of the grade school ages), all children remain throughout the liturgy. Sunday School proper occurs between, not concurrently with, the services.
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 22, 2008 12:45:54 PM
>>In my present Lutheran church, all children remain through the Liturgy of the Word up to the point of the sermon, at which time the younger children are escorted by an elder or deacon to "children's church," where they stay during the sermon and the Liturgy of the Sacrament. But past a certain age (somewhere in the middle of the grade school ages), all children remain throughout the liturgy. Sunday School proper occurs between, not concurrently with, the services.<<
To quote our "worship folder" or "bulletin" or "order of service-with-news-flyer": "All children ages 4-6 may be excused for Children's Church at the taking of the Offering. An usher will guide them." Thus the service follows: offering, sermon, Communion. The children return at the end of the sermon and participate in the Sacrament, receiving a blessing in lieu of bread and wine prior to their first communion instruction. Then, of course, there's the nursery for children undeer the age of three that need more individual attention.
Sunday school, classes for both adults and pre-k thru 6th grade, run at 9:30 during one our services. Then there's another service at 11:00, during which time the youth group and college students take over the classrooms. It works out pretty well, though there are some parents that use the Sunday school program as babysitting while they attend church themselves.
On the whole, however, I am inclined to agree with Dr. Hutchens: those parents who do not elect to send their children to the nursery or "children's church" should attend to those childrens' needs outside the place of worship if they cannot be quieted in a quick, appropriate manner during the service.
Posted by: Michael | Feb 22, 2008 1:17:42 PM
Bill R wrote: "As a result, both have left mainstream evangelicalism for emergent churches, more like the "youth groups" to which they became acclimated in adolescence." Wow! That's a remarkable observation. People attend emergent churches to feed the man-child. You may be onto something. Which brings up another question: Why do we let adults worship one way and teenagers another?
Posted by: Kirk | Feb 22, 2008 1:18:56 PM
>>Wow! That's a remarkable observation. People attend emergent churches to feed the man-child. You may be onto something. Which brings up another question: Why do we let adults worship one way and teenagers another?<<
"We" don't. And I think it's a harsh indictment to say all emergents are feeding the man-child. It's far too broad of a generalization. Besides that, "emergent" church isn't a denomination--there's emergent churches with liturgy and emergent churches with body art. They're pretty self-defined. Makes it very hard to have a proper conversation with them, or rather, a conversation that leads anywhere. They consider their faith itself to be "a conversation." Huh?
Posted by: Michael | Feb 22, 2008 1:51:35 PM
I anticipated some responses of this sort, which is why I made the "essential question" one about how the ministry of the Word is to be carried out in the congregation. If there is to be a sermon that is "a reasoned discourse of some length that requires meditative attention," then distracting noise needs to be removed as far as possible, including those made by electronic devices, or people of any age or condition who cannot control the sounds they make--for essentially the same reason those with infectious diseases should not come to church until they are no longer contagious. These are to be ministered to, like the children, in other ways--ministries which the sermon itself is meant to serve. The women with children who need care should ask their husbands about the sermon at home. It will do them both good. If they have young children but no husbands, they require special attention, but not the privilege of disrupting the ministry of the Word.
My experience in Catholic churches is that the sermons are very short by Protestant standards, so that what I have said here would not necessarily be required of them. They have exchanged one possible good for another possible good, but the transaction does involve an exchange. My point is that one cannot reasonably have both. I am open to the idea that the sermon as a reasoned discourse of some length that requires meditative attention is wrong-headed, but much less to the notion that one can have this and "noise" at the same time--and I reject this conviction as as cruel or contrary to the spirit of community any more than my wife is when she pokes me for dozing off and making sleeping noises, as I do on occasion during sermons.
Posted by: smh | Feb 22, 2008 2:00:50 PM
I am for bringing children into the service at certain points and dismissing them at others, telling them that cannot stay for the whole until they are old enough quietly to pay attention. This treats them as the catechumens they are, and gives them an adult privilege at which to aim.
As much as I am all for giving children adult privileges for which to aim, this gets it exactly backwards with respect to the tradition of the church (and the Church). The catechumens, in days or old, were expected to be present during the liturgy of the word, and then booted out prior to the liturgy of the mass. But then perhaps, Hutchens has betrayed his hand: the liturgy of the word (and a proper, contemplative attention given thereunto) IS the central "sacrament" at his place of worship. If that is so, however, then what place at all do catechumens (noisy ones at any rate) have in this style of Christian liturgy? (I fear of the only logical answer.)
If sermons require that much concentration to unpack (certainly not a bad thing, per se), then perhaps Mr. Hutchens could politely ask his pastor to make his sermons available online or on dead tree, by which they could then be perused in an atmosphere and at a pace more suitable for such unpacking. What precisely needs to be communal about such rapt attention giving? If it loses something in commitment to paper, then surely the hearers at risk of being duped more by a great orator, than edified by a great thinker. Surely, whatever benefit might be obtained by attending to such a complex sermon in real time during an hour on Sunday morning would be multiplied many times over if one could spend several more hours pouring over it at one's leisure, annotating it, cross-referencing, &c.
I think it best resolved by having the mother take the child from the room and care for it elsewhere.
That sentence would've benefited from some careful proofreading.
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Feb 22, 2008 2:02:52 PM
As Michael notes, emergent churches are all over the map, so it's hard to draw any one conclusion universally applicable to all. But I do think that the deliberate segregation of children from "adult" services in evangelical churches is a factor in the creation and expansion of the emergent movement today. At my daughter's church, the membership is overwhelmingly under 30. The pastor told me he's desperate to have enough "older folks" (read: over 30) members to "mentor" the younger members. Since I'm past 50, I felt as if I were Methuselah come back from the dead. Fortunately the lighting in such services is too poor for anyone to see my gray hairs....
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 22, 2008 2:08:54 PM
I will add that to my prescriptions should be added "as a rule." This is reason, decency and order. But even with these things in place, there will be plenty of call for patience, forbearance, and generosity, which involves dealing with with anomalous, disruptive situations with charity and the love of souls to which the Lord always demands the sacrifice of our own comfort. A congregation may decide to put up with certain kinds of disruptions in love, or for necessity. But this is not to say that there is any good in these things themselves, or that the congregation isn't also right in attempting to fix the problem and to return to order. The right response is not always the "soft" one. That is something modern Christians have a very, very hard time understanding.
Posted by: smh | Feb 22, 2008 2:19:30 PM
Mr. Nicoloso's remark calls for comment. When I called children "catechumens" I was indicating that they are still being taught about the faith in preparation for communion, not placing them with adult learners, which I thought should be obvious by the context. And may I point out that Catholic neophytes are also catechumens--that's why Catholic churches catechize them. And again, the kind of sermons I am talking about are exactly what I said: reasoned discourses of some length that require meditative attention: material for Christians of mature mind, for adults. Why, then, am I accused of making them into something indigestible, as given, to what should be the normal Christian mind? I cry foul on both counts. What you seem to be saying is that sermons of the kind I have described are bad sermons that have no place in a proper mass, but I have been very careful to be sure my wording could not be reasonably interpreted that way.
As for tipping my hand in the sense of disclosing something shameful in that I am used to churches where the sermon is the only sacrament, I have made it clear in Mere Comments and elsewhere that churches which minimize the Eucharistic ministry at the expense of that of the Word are in error--but what I have said applies to any church that decides its wants serious adult sermons, whether it is defective in the former respect or not. For a substantial portion of my adult life I attended Episcopal churches that did excellently well in both regards.
I seem to have hit a Catholic nerve, although my intention was more to hit a Protestant one.
Posted by: smh | Feb 22, 2008 3:07:20 PM
In my lifetime, typical sermons in the Reformed/Presbyterian churches I've frequented have gone from 40 mintues to 20 minutes in length. I have a 17th century book of Reformed sermons that belonged to my father. Those sermons would take more than an hour to read aloud.
I'm all for meaty theological edification and have no difficulty paying attention to longer sermons. But I'm beginning to think that the place for such lengthy teaching is not in Sunday morning divine worship, but at another time -- a time when children are not present to disrupt the listeners.
For Sunday morning worship, I'd rather be nourished by a filet mignon homily than discourses that remind me of those monster steaks that I used to see advertised on West Texas billboards.
Posted by: pilgrim kate | Feb 22, 2008 3:23:17 PM
I wonder about how fitting the "solution" here is to the "problem." If the problem is the mother with the crying baby and the solution is to categorically remove all children from the sermon, that seems like killing a gnat with a sledge hammer. What about the mother (or father) of a crying baby just remove that baby? Some churches have a "crying room" with the service piped in via speakers.
A complication with having childcare/children's church during a sermon is that it takes lots of adults out of the "adult sermon" to take care of the kids.
Posted by: GB | Feb 22, 2008 4:41:47 PM
"In my lifetime, typical sermons in the Reformed/Presbyterian churches I've frequented have gone from 40 mintues to 20 minutes in length. I have a 17th century book of Reformed sermons that belonged to my father. Those sermons would take more than an hour to read aloud." - Pilgrim Kate
Sermon length is an issue. In the years I was an evangelical, I visited a number of different evangelical (and other) churches, and rare was the evangelical sermon that clocked in at under 40-45 minutes. That hasn't changed much over the years and may explain in part why evangelical services are basically "jugend-frei." Kids never had that kind of attention span, and today less than ever. Only adults (and, I suspect, adults of a certain age) can handle that. The Catholic liturgies I've attended tend to have homilies that run 10-12 minutes. (Your average evangelical preacher is just getting warmed up after 10-12 minutes.) Our Lutheran pastor's sermons run about 20 minutes. (As Goldilocks might say, "Just right!") As to the generations past, where sermons ran to an hour or more, I can only say that the ones we have in writing show that they had more meat. Read Spurgeon: he'll hold your interest for an hour. But many of the evangelical sermons these days limp in comparison. The same points are repeated two or three times, as if we were all a bit dim-witted. Such preachers need a good editor.
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 22, 2008 4:49:49 PM
Children belong in worship. Children who make noise because they have needs should be taken out by parents and ministered to. Children who make noise inappropriately and willfully should also be taken out and ministered to, although in a different manner. Our church has the Lord's Supper weekly and generally a 35-40 minute sermon. We are currently on a two week streak that has required neither our two year old nor our four month old need to be removed. This is unusual and an occasion for great thanks!
Posted by: David Gray | Feb 22, 2008 5:13:34 PM
Well, in LDS services, we allow the whole family. Mormon parents try to remove screaming kids, but really, in most wards you have this steady drone of kid noise throughout the congregation. Either you get good at tuning out the noise, or you get good at tuning out the speaker.
The good news is that since all sermons are given by the lay members, the quality usually isn't all that great and you likely didn't miss much anyway.
After the general meeting, we go to separate classes, which largely solves the kid problem for those two hours anyway. The problem is the young parents with small children.
My own boy is about 13 months old, which means he's still about 6 months shy of being old enough to go into the nursery. So I have a couple options. I can take him with me to the adult class, or I can "walk the halls" with him. If I take him to class, he's very mobile and WILL NOT sit still. So he'll run about the classroom saying hi to all the new people, possibly including the instructor. Reactions will vary. Some of the adults are charmed by it. Others who have forgotten that they ever had small children will give me the stink eye. So usually, I avoid that option in favor of following him around the Church hallways. The third hour, we have the adult male classes and in our class, we have five boys all about my son's age. Our solution has been to arrange the folding chairs as a barricade across half the room so the little rugrats are confined to the back half of the classroom where we young dads share snacks and toys, and probably various infections (got nailed last December with a real doozy). That seems to work well, and the boys are so fascinated with each other that they don't make much noise really. Aside from the occasional foul odor necessitating a hasty exit, we're cool.
But that's a classroom full of young dads. In mixed company it doesn't really work so well.
Posted by: Seth R. | Feb 22, 2008 5:23:51 PM
This raises a number of interesting points. It seems a rather enviable problem, actually. There can be homilies that suck all the air out of the room, so that the most life-affirming option is listening to the whiny child in the next pew. Often the children's demeanor and the measures applied or not-applied look like family dysfunction writ large, thus offering an opportunity to say a prayer for the whole situation.
Steve N. is probably correct as to the sacramental emphasis. Children are part of the Here Comes Everybody of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Which, also, have monasteries to worship with if the issue is really big for someone. Anyway, I ask myself, what did Jesus have to put up with in crowds, attitudes and infelicities that most of us are not even yet sensitive to?
There are probably also neurological differences that affect sensitivity to random, especially high-pitched noise. I myself am resigned to using earplugs to mute the pain when the public address system has a particular high whine, which seemingly bothers no one else. And, yes, when toddler shrieks are really loud.
In practical terms, where you position yourself matters a lot. First two rows, generally children are few and behave or leave. Church is not a graduate seminar, and perhaps increased personal lectio divina on the subject at hand is the answer. Or write for us another wonderful essay querying the part of the sermon you have been able to attend to.
Posted by: dilys | Feb 22, 2008 5:30:12 PM
I don't believe the overly-long sermon is fitting for the Sunday morning worship on a weekly basis. I live in Denver and Abp. Chaput delivers the kinds of homilies you are speaking about. I've never heard him preach for less than 40 minutes. Because of this, I rarely attend his masses, because my young children just can't sit still for the 90-120 minutes his masses take.
I don't know much about protestant services. Outside of the sermon, how long is the rest of the service? The mass I usually attend is about about 75 minutes, including a 15 minute homily. The other elements of worship take an hour at minimum. On most Sundays, I don't really want a worship service that takes longer than an hour and a half.
I think that longer homlies are more fitting for evening services, which typically have few children in attendence in any case.
The one "solution" I really can't stand is the "cry-room". Nothing says second class like being shut off in a closet with your kids at mass and listening through a speaker.
As to why this hits a Catholic nerve? My guess is that on average, Catholics who are likely to read Touchstone have more children than your readers of other traditions. For observant Catholic parents, the issue of what to do with small children at worship is not an experience confined to a few short years, but is stretched out over decades. No one wants to have leave mass for the homily every Sunday year after year after year, just because they have faithfully accepted the Church's counsel that one should have a large family if they are able.
Posted by: ben | Feb 22, 2008 5:38:59 PM
Mr. Hutchens:
I (as a Catholic) long for the type of sermons of which you speak... and have resigned myself, barring a miracle, to no reasonable expectation of receiving them. Our most gifted homilist is too gifted by half, spending most of his immense talents on casting doubt, with occasional sneering, on the most settled matters of doctrine, whilst artfully, delicately avoiding open heresy. With less gifted homilists, we are treated more often to mere platitudes, sometimes of the more dangerous and sometimes of the less dangerous variety. I am, in my own experience, therefore delighted by the crying of children... edifying in proportion only to their number.
It is not that I accuse deep and thougtful sermons of being bad, nor that I do not find them fitting, per se, for proper worship. It is just I do not see why such deep learning need be an event for the entire worshipping community. Yes, a more fitting place would be an adult course or bible study, but that doesn't make them per se out of place. It is just that, in a community where the sermon has become the centerpiece of worship, all the more understandable in communities where sermons have the qualities of which you speak... well then shouldn't the entire community "participate" (as best they can) in that central act?
I mean there is no real theological problem (only social, practical, prudential ones) with releasing the kiddies to Childrens' Liturgy of the Word in the Catholic Church (which, in its never-ending rush to be protestant, in fact our parish does at most 10AMs), because for Catholics, the Liturgy of the Word is the mere preliminaries: Jesus is gonna come, he's the centerpiece, and for that we'll all definitely being together... babies crying or not.
It seems to me that biblically and historically, Christian worship should consist at minimum of 1) proclamation of the word, 2) prayer (confession, petitions, &c.), and 3) the Lord's Supper. Now getting a great, lengthy, deep, lifechanging homily as part of that first part, whether it be 10 minutes or 60, is a great plus, a worthy goal perhaps, but a luxury, not a necessity. Now in the ideal, all three parts would be experienced by the worshipping community together as one. And I guess I'm not willing to sacrifice the oneness in true worship, just so we can get a part 1 on steroids, much less the proper enjoyment of part 1 on steroids.
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Feb 22, 2008 5:53:17 PM
I guess I agree with Steve in some sense. Our services are more about meeting together as community than about hearing a particularly good sermon.
Not that everyone at church is happy with this reality. Especially those who are anti-social to begin with.
Oh well. There's always the internet I guess...
Posted by: Seth R. | Feb 22, 2008 6:04:50 PM
"Oh well. There's always the internet I guess..." - Seth
Don't laugh. In the 19th century, Charles Spurgeon's sermons were all printed and sold for a penny within a day or so of delivery. One big reason was that many Baptist and other evangelical pastors read Spurgeon's sermons to their congregations the following Sunday. I'm not sure if this practice survived Spurgeon's death (or if Spurgeon always received proper attribution), but many smaller congregations got high-grade sermons for some years (leaving to one side the issue of the quality of the pastor-lector). Spurgeon clearly approved of this practice, and I'm not sure it was inappropriate. The internet clearly is a vehicle for such distribution, but I suspect many pastors for a variety of reasons wouldn't do this today (not the least reason being the suspicion of the congregation that the pastor was just a tad lazy).
It's very difficult, however, to give a good sermon. A decent sermon isn't a good article read out loud or a good speech with a religious theme. The Lutheran Church has a lay diaconate program aimed at training lay deacons to delivery high-quality sermons. One of our deacons is currently enrolled in this program. (Sermons are delivered at special services, such as the Wednesday evening Lenten liturgy.) I intend to take this program myself. I've given hundreds of speeches, but I'm not sure I can give a good sermon. I hope to find out. If nothing else, I'll come back with a renewed appreciation for our pastor's sermons, and the sweat that their preparation entails.
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 22, 2008 6:33:41 PM
The discussion on sermon length brings to mind a P.G. Wodehouse story. Bertie Wooster was staying with friends in the country, and the fellows got up a bet on which priest among the nearby churches would give the longest sermon. Bertie had some inside information and was set to make a good deal of money, but the priest he chose suddenly got sick and someone short-winded took his place. Of course the story was far more convoluted and entertaining than that.
Posted by: Judy K. Warner | Feb 22, 2008 7:45:55 PM
Steve,
That priest of yours is a piece of work. A heretical piece of work. Praising Sister Joan Chittister, heretique extraordinaire ... Writing an immense and convoluted account of homosexuality in the priesthood, and never mentioning "sin" ... Claiming that women were priests for the first 500 years of the church ... I don't know how you put up with it. I don't know why you put up with it....
Posted by: Tony Esolen | Feb 22, 2008 7:55:58 PM
Tony:
It's my parish: I live two blocks away. I hear the bells ring before each mass (excepting the 7AMs, for which I assume our parish exercises mercy on its neighbors...) I walk to church for the first time in my adult life! Plus, our parish is very gothic and stunningly beautiful, esp. after the renovation (emphatically not a wreckovation). Moreover, I (likely) with my children will, not to put too fine a point on it, outlive our priests, both active and retired. (The one whose web page I pointed out is retired and not our senior pastor. But he is, of course, quite popular... especially among silly women of a certain age with too much time on their hands.) Our Bishop (Serratelli) is serious and faithful, but also prudent in his fixing of the things that got broke, taking back ground by inches and not miles. (E.g., we're seeing glass "chalices" only rarely now; the tabernacle was moved back to the main sanctuary after our recent rennovation; EMHCs only rarely distributing the host; &c.)
I have trained my children to be suspect of what comes from the lectern (or their catechist). We'll even joke about homilies after mass, privately of course, "Uh oh, Fr. [insert stereotypical self-loathing Catholic modernist] forgot to mention the bad ol' 'fundamentalists' in that one!"
The nearest indult mass (FSSP) to me is over 20 miles away, AFAIK, super crowded and... well... a bit rad trad snooty. The moto proprio has not yet inspired a TLM nearer by, not that I care (gasp) that much the TLM. My own hope continues to be that the moto proprio will inspire a more serious and faithful rendering of the novus ordo; that priests and the faithful will rightly begin see their worship in unity with the universal Church of all history, irrespective of rite or language. I have (gasp) seen the novus ordo done well (in other dioceses) and utterly without liturgical abuse. (It's rare, but it exists.) Other parishes nearby at even more infected with dissent and modernism than my own, and plus most of them are ghastly ugly.
No, the mess we're in is where we've decided to stay... and work (quietly and gently) for the reform of the reform: Mostly by praying, teaching CCD, and popping out kids (#7 due in May). To quote Caleb Stegall, it's "generational work". We'll be getting a new senior pastor in the next year or two. If he turns out to be a younger version of Fr. [insert self-loathing Catholic modernist], well then, maybe we'll shop, but there'd still have to be somewhere else to go... and as of now, I don't know where that somewhere is... Rhode Island?
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Feb 22, 2008 8:42:32 PM
I can put up with bad preaching and bad preachers. Long sermons, dull sermons, even stupid sermons. But I can't put up with truly heterodox sermons. My wife would have to restrain me from standing up and shouting, "Heretic!" (Well, maybe.) So Steve's concept of Catholic life with a heterodox parish priest is beyond my understanding or sympathy. To understand how that appears to an orthodox Protestant, imagine that your parish priest starts playing tiddlywinks with any leftover hosts following the Mass. But why is one unacceptable while the other (heretical preaching) is tolerated? Is not the Word at least as holy as the Sacrament?
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 23, 2008 12:34:26 AM
I think the perfect solution is to have a "quiet room" with a closed-circuit TV (and ideally, even a window looking out into the sanctuary) so the parents can be part of the service during the times children are too noisy. Then nobody misses anything, and even the children can pick up as much as they're able.
Posted by: Susan | Feb 23, 2008 8:41:27 AM
>>To understand how that appears to an orthodox Protestant, imagine that your parish priest starts playing tiddlywinks with any leftover hosts following the Mass. But why is one unacceptable while the other (heretical preaching) is tolerated?
I'll take a stab at this: Wheats, tares, etc. The distinction between orthodoxy and orthopraxy is often useful, but ultimately artificial. What matter more are the kind and degree of our defiance. Offenses tend to accumulate first as little, discrete quanta -- eventually amassing into nebulae of disobedience.
Remember that in the context of this ecumenical venture, we are all dealing with grave heresy. From an RC perspective, the Protestants are heretics and the EOs schismatics. From some Protestant perspectives, the RCs are heretics precisely because they insist on some post-Apostolic ecclesial developments as matters of divine authority. Not to put to fine a point on it, from an EO perspective pretty much everyone else is a heretic.
Most of us, quite rightly, don't wave these accusations around, especially not at Touchstone or MC. It's a matter of prudence, modesty, patience, strategy, and forbearance -- virtues to which Mr. Nicoloso alludes. When does it become time to break communion? When does one press for a moment of judgment, shouting, "Ich stehe hier?" When do we ourselves pronounce the judgment? When do we intervene, not out of principle but simply out of a responsibility to protect others? These questions are no easier to answer now than they were in 1845, 1517, 1054, or even for some of the (human) New Testament authors.
Posted by: DGP | Feb 23, 2008 8:44:27 AM
Sorry, wrong URL. This is it.
Posted by: Susan | Feb 23, 2008 8:49:45 AM
I think a distinction can be made between babies who are crying (that is their vocabulary, after all) and toddlers and older who ought to know better than to play loudly during the service, but whose parents will not discipline them.
That is partly what cry rooms are for, complete with the service piped in. Our long-term plans are to have a cry room that is mostly glass, extending into the back of the sanctuary on one side.
This sort of disruption was not an issue anywhere else but this congregation, and I suspect that it was rare in the past, but it is so loud that one cannot hear the pastor, even the words of the liturgy, unless one sits in front. It is the word which is powerful, doing what God says when God has it said, so this is important.
Posted by: labrialumn | Feb 23, 2008 10:14:23 AM
Which synod is that, Bill? I think Missouri only has deaconesses. . . Which do not seem to resemble early Church deaconesses.
Though the Director of Christian x's are effectively diaconal, and there is some move, with much resistance, to make that official.
Posted by: labrialumn | Feb 23, 2008 10:22:30 AM
"Which synod is that, Bill? I think Missouri only has deaconesses."
Labrialumn,
Our church is LCMS. Since our lay deacon was introduced by our pastor as a graduate of the Synod's diaconate training program, I have to assume that at least some of us have deacons.
"Most of us, quite rightly, don't wave these accusations around, especially not at Touchstone or MC."
Fr. DGP,
I'm not sure that I follow you, although you're usually a model of clarity. I'm certainly not attacking Catholics or any other Christians, for that matter. I'm not arguing that Steve should break communion. My position here is, I think, the same as Tony Esolen's--Steve should seek another parish, not another tradition (not that I'd object to that, of course!)
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 23, 2008 11:14:11 AM
>>Fr. DGP, I'm not sure that I follow you, although you're usually a model of clarity.
Sorry for the fuzziness, but thanks for the vote of confidence.
>>I'm certainly not attacking Catholics or any other Christians, for that matter.
Oh, I didn't think so. Neither did I intend any attacks on anyone.
>>I'm not arguing that Steve should break communion. My position here is, I think, the same as Tony Esolen's--Steve should seek another parish, not another tradition (not that I'd object to that, of course!)
Well, Mr. Nicoloso seemed to construe your remarks (and Prof. Esolen's) as an exhortation to leave, which to me seems like a kind of broken communion -- with the parish, that is. Leaving any community of the faithful because of someone's bad behavior strikes me as excommunication in substance, if not in law. I'm not always against that, but I consider it a grave matter.
Looking back, I see neither of you actually suggested he should leave, but rather that he should not "put up" with the situation, whatever that means. Perhaps, with Mr. Nicoloso, I misconstrued. There are other forms of objection, some less grave and still quite salutary.
The throwing of cream pies comes to mind -- not so much because it's salutary, but because it seems condign to the theology on offer from the preacher under discussion. :)
Posted by: DGP | Feb 23, 2008 12:00:51 PM
The one solution I really object to is what Bill R talked about, and always sending kids away. They never learn to be part of the adult service.* I teach Sunday school now, and one of the most terrifying moments I had was when I realized a lot of my kids don't go to morning worship at all, and I'm pretty much all the formal theological training they get. And we have a really excellent preacher, too. Scary!!
*This applies to training kids up to have adult ministries in the church. My parents were always counting money, cleaning the building, Christmas decorating, putting on potlucks, and on and on and on, and I was there too, vacuuming, pulling boxes out of the attic, washing dishes...I thought it was normal, and I still think it was really, really good for me. :-)
Posted by: Pinon Coffee | Feb 23, 2008 12:39:35 PM
To understand how that appears to an orthodox Protestant, imagine that your parish priest starts playing tiddlywinks with any leftover hosts following the Mass. But why is one unacceptable while the other (heretical preaching) is tolerated? Is not the Word at least as holy as the Sacrament?
Bill:
Well first off, I pointed to a web site (parenthetically I might add) of a priest (Fr. Lasch) who serves our parish, and who was the senior of a pastor of a nearby parish for many years, but who is now retired and takes on one (or at most 2) of our 5 (or 6) weekend masses, and then about two or three per week of of the twice/day daily masses. Now on his website he posts all kind of things that he doesn't actually come out and say in homilies. I actually made a point (somewhere up there) of saying that he is particularly artful and not uttering bald-faced heresy from the lectern: It's a game that dissenters have learned to play over the past 40 years, and he has learned it quite well. So we're (or at least I'm) not talking about heterodox sermons here. Sermons that are often carefully constructed to cast doubt on certain matters of settled doctrine, or cast a mist over precisely what that settle doctrine is, but never explicitly so. Those poorly trained in the teaching of the Church (which is, alas, the vast majority of Catholics, even the 52 weeks/yr kind), cannot be turned away from something they have never had: an understanding of what the Church authoritatively teaches, and a commitment to all that entails (submission). And in defense of this particular priest: He, among all our regular priests, is the MOST faithful to the rubrics of the Liturgy of the Eucharist: never uses glass chalices, e.g.. (Go figure!)
So, I understand how all this appears to a protestant; I was one until very recently. But so what? We DON'T have priests playing tiddlywinks with consecrated hosts (nor unconsecrated ones). Neither failures you mention are acceptable, but they are different species of abuse. One is subjective (disordered/heretical or intentionally obtuse teaching), the other objective (committing sacriledge with the Body of Christ). The latter calls for an immediate stop... irrespective of the intentions of the tiddlywinker. The former calls for prudence, teaching, a reform of the inner man.
And no, the Word is NOT "at least as holy" as the Body and Blood of the Lord... in fact, NOT AS holy, or at least not the preaching attached thereunto. Ya know, we do get the Word. Our "handlers" try to weaken it: they put doofy little explanations, which explain nothing, in the mouths of the lectors before each passage; explanations that say shit like Paul didn't really write this bit; they feed it to us in the NAB, which except for the NRSV is the worst English translation of the Bible I've ever heard (and I do mean "heard": it is literarily tone deaf); then they give us homilies filled mostly what rich white folks want to hear. But the Word is spoken... in between all that... it is ingrained into the Liturgy, and those with ears to hear will hear it, not because of, but in spite of, the crap that our "handlers" dish out. How I wish it could be both! But further division is no solution. And besides here I got stained 100+ year old stained glass, including a big one of St. Pius X in the back elevating the host. Most suburbanite parishes are not so lucky.
I'm certain there are many in my parish that would love to see us gone away to some ultramontane parish where we'd "fit in" better... we with our 6 kids, my wife great with #7, always down near the front, praying and singing loudly, of having the audacity to actually read what the Holy Father says, and to know that our "handlers" use the term "fundamentalist" with all the precision that most use the term "sonuvabitch." As it stands, our mere presence is an emphatic and living affirmation of the "old style" Catholicism that the movers and shakers of our parish have come to so loathe. But ya know... I'm not really an ultramontanist. The Holy Father is only first among equals, and a symbol of unity... unity that goes back for all of our 2000 year history. I don't think Latin is necessarily better. I'd like to see the English Rite done right. And to see better catechesis HERE. All doable things... given time... It's Generational Work.
Now back to kicking squealing kids out of church...
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Feb 23, 2008 1:21:29 PM
>And no, the Word is NOT "at least as holy" as the Body and Blood of the Lord... in fact, NOT AS holy, or at least not the preaching attached thereunto.
Our Lord is the Word...
Posted by: David Gray | Feb 23, 2008 2:01:23 PM
Steve,
In view of the fact that this pastor is not your regular pastor, I withdraw my comments as to you. I think my comments do stand in general, however, with respect to those who do find themselves with a heterodox pastor. I confess I don't understand your "subjective/objective" distinction, since the handling of the Word of God in public worship strikes me as being as objective as my tiddlywink example.
Anyway, as you say, back to squealing kids....
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 23, 2008 4:01:58 PM
"The throwing of cream pies comes to mind -- not so much because it's salutary, but because it seems condign to the theology on offer from the preacher under discussion. :)" - DGP
The Condign Cream Pie Brigade--as Dave Barry would say, what a great name for a rock band! Bound to strike terror in the hearts of heretics everywhere!
Posted by: Bill R | Feb 23, 2008 4:59:46 PM
Re the cry room: I found that my younger children behaved worse in the cry room than in the church itself. They also tended to behave worse if I brought along any kind of "quiet" occupation for them: a book (saints, Mass Book for Children, etc) or coloring paper and crayons. At this stage, when the younger set are 5 and 4, our best Mass experiences actually are at quiet daily Masses mid-week, where the congregation is small and the homilies tend to be longer (but good). We sit close to the front; they can see Father clearly, and he can see them, which may have something to do with why they behave.
The cry room is a Godsend if you have a crying baby -- though in our parish a number of people without any sign of a baby in their company seem to regard the cry room as a kind of auxiliary chapel or something, and look at you askance if you intrude on them with a child while they're sitting there silently observing the Mass as if they were watching it on television. But on the whole, with children older than little-toddler age, I strongly prefer having them learn (however imperfectly) to sit in Mass to having them dismissed for specialness training, which is what the catechetical formation in our parish amounts to.
If someone is acting up to the extent of disturbing other people at their prayers, then we make our exit, but I've found that people are mostly very kind and tolerant of a certain amount of inevitable shuffling. This in marked contrast to our last Episcopal parish, very tiny and with a largely elderly congregation, where people glared even at our older children, who knew how to sit still. My older son, who was 9 when we converted to Catholicism, remarked early in our foray into the Church that Catholic people really seemed to LIKE children for some reason, he had noticed.
I've never wanted to inflict my kids at their worst on other people, but at the same time, what they're learning -- to be in church; to worship alongside the rest of us -- shouldn't be discounted, however bumpy that learning process might be. And the more reverent and un-kidded-down the service (ie not a school Mass where Father displays his toothbrush as visual aid during the homily), the better they rise to the occasion.
Posted by: Sally | Feb 24, 2008 1:20:51 AM
Sally,
Your comment seems to me to capture the best attitude of all. I also am a convert and often attend with my son and his wife and their three children: 6, 4, and 2. The 6 year old is now a model of good behavior, but every couple of weeks, one of the other two have to be taken out. My son and his wife take turns. They've almost never had to miss the eucharist, as processing up the aisle is a lot more interesting to a small child than sitting still in a pew. Their attitude is that church is something we do together, period.
This seems to be the orientation of all Catholic families with small children, and the blessings are incalculable! Never had I known this family friendly atmosphere in church! Also, only on very rare occasions does the volume and distraction become overbearing. On one such occasion, when a parent was taking a particularly long time to decide to take a SCREAMING infant out, the priest commented, "Please don't let it trouble you. What that child has to say is more important than anything I have to say." We all chuckled and the parent, who was in the process of taking the child out, was put at ease.
Posted by: Janet | Feb 24, 2008 1:22:55 PM
I've always found it a little difficult to hear the sermons at Mass -- not so much because of crying children, but because of people around me sneezing, coughing, squirming, shuffling, etc. It's never particularly bothered me -- it's just something I've always accepted. Now that I think about it, though, I wonder if it isn't time to introduce cordless headsets to church services? People with hearing difficulties could amplify the sound; sermons could be translated into, say, Spanish, on the fly for the benefit of non-English speakers; and perhaps those squawky children could even get an age-appropriate sermon to help alleviate their restlessness.
Posted by: Francesca | Feb 24, 2008 2:03:14 PM
Maybe THAT's why that sign-language-interpreter lady is up there.
Posted by: Sally | Feb 24, 2008 4:39:13 PM
And Janet, yes, this is one of the many things I love about being Catholic. Most of the large families I know -- good friends of ours in our parish have 9 -- attend Mass together not only on Sunday but at least once during the week as well. The more they are in church, the better they seem to behave.
Inspired by one of these mothers, I began some time ago to start working on sitting quietly and listening as a skill with my younger children, just as I work with them on reading -- actually, quiet read-alouds and audiobooks are good for this kind of thing, on top of all the other obvious benefits. Before I was Catholic I had never given a moment's thought to training my children to sit quietly in church, because we'd always used nursery and Sunday School until they were quite old (well, until we were Catholic, actually). With hindsight I can see that even my very kinetic, impulsive 5-year-old son has far more self-control in church than his generally-quieter older brother had at the same age, when we had no expectation that he would have that kind of self-control.
Posted by: Sally | Feb 24, 2008 4:57:14 PM
>And Janet, yes, this is one of the many things I love about being Catholic.
I never thought of having family in worship as a Catholic distinctive. And large families much less so than years ago...
Posted by: David Gray | Feb 24, 2008 5:06:31 PM
>>Now that I think about it, though, I wonder if it isn't time to introduce cordless headsets to church services? People with hearing difficulties could amplify the sound; sermons could be translated into, say, Spanish, on the fly for the benefit of non-English speakers; and perhaps those squawky children could even get an age-appropriate sermon to help alleviate their restlessness.<<
We don't have instantaneous translation or sermons catered to age groups, but my church does have wireless earbuds available for the hearing impaired. The sound is received directly from the mix board, meaning they only get sound within the mic's pick-up range. We have 4, and I think it's time we bought more--I once had to tell someone "sorry" at an Easter service because they had all been taken!
I'm not sure--no, I'm positive that I do not like the idea of sermons specifically for the children. That is not them participating in the liturgy of the Word with the rest of the congregation, and it would be just as practical to send them to children's church to get an age appropriate lesson and return for the Sacrament, which is what my church does already. I likewise do not support multi-lingual services--multi-lingual churches, perhaps (and this a stretch), but not services. It does not encourage assimilation into the local body.
Posted by: Michael | Feb 24, 2008 6:55:57 PM
My home parish (Episcopal...but perhaps not for long, being in the Fort Worth Diocese) has a cry room with a huge window (with a curtain for privacy during nursing/changing) that looks into the sanctuary and a speaker (when someone decides to turn it on that is). It contains changing supplies, rocking chairs, a crib, and toys. I have found that I absolutely LOVE this room for taking my little one in to nurse/change his diaper if I'm sitting down with the congregation (I don't bother if I'm in the choir loft, besides he's quieter up there anyway with the organ and all).
Off topic (well, kind of, but I figured this would be the best topic to post this information): George Preston Alexander Sparkman arrived on 1/23/08 at 8 lbs, 6 oz and 20 inches long. He has a full head of hair and is a most precious gift from God. He is a joy for his Mommy and Daddy and will be baptized on Easter Vigil. If anyone would care to find out more information or to see some pictures, please visit my blog (linked in my name).
Posted by: Isamashii Yuubi (Courageous Grace) | Feb 24, 2008 10:23:56 PM
I'm not sure if this is a Catholic only discussion, but from my point of view (as a Protestant) It seems that an alternative solution seems to be missing, namely Parents actually parenting. Our daughter attended worship services with us from an early age. We made it clear that she was expected to sit quietly and listen. Infants are a different issue - I don't see the value in bring an infant to a worship service, but it should be the parents choice. If you're going to bring them, it's your responsibility to keep 'em quiet.
To address another matter, it seems to me that there is a distinct difference between teaching (pedagogy) and preaching or sermonizing (homiletics). I believe that scripture seems to make that distinction in passages where it outlines spiritual gifts. Teaching is for the purpose of instruction - to inform to student and impart information. Preaching is for the purpose of exhortation - to motivate people to action. The two functions aren't mutually exclusive, teachers can exhort and preachers teach, but they have very different primary functions. In either case, it seems that there is room for age appropriate material. We think nothing of defining our teaching classes by ages, why is a sermon different?
Posted by: Richard Boyd | Feb 25, 2008 12:11:22 AM
One thing I've noticed about Orthodox preaching in the 16+ years I've been attending services, is that because the sermon is generally only 10 - 20 minutes, a good preacher can manage to say an awful lot of good stuff in a short time. Having come from a tradition where sermons usually ran 40 minutes minimum, and sometimes went as long an hour or even an hour-15, this is a huge breath of fresh air.
On the other hand, when Orthodox preaching is bad, it can be very bad, with the priest sort of wandering around for 10 or 15 minutes sounding like Virginia Woolf at her worst.
In any case, as in so many other things, I think quality trumps quantity. I'll take a great 15-minute sermon over a lacklustre 45-minute one anyday.
Posted by: Rob G | Feb 25, 2008 6:52:39 AM
Grace,
What a beautiful baby you have. Please post more pictures.
Posted by: Judy K. Warner | Feb 25, 2008 7:08:58 AM
We think nothing of defining our teaching classes by ages, why is a sermon different?
Why indeed, Richard? Well, then tell us that precisely in which Christian Liturgy ought subsist. As has been pointed out, the case is a strong one: viz., the proper enjoyment/appreciation of a rich and dense sermon requires concentration in a contemplative environment not suitable for all who bear the name of Christ. The irony is that is the largely same folks who would elevate, or who come from traditions that elevate, the Liturgy of the Word to the central act of corporate worship. The Catholic answers: there are some Thing(s) that are more important than the proper enjoyment/appreciation of rich and dense sermons, however beneficial they might otherwise be. If the Protestant answer is that there isn't, well then... you are free to design "worship" services accordingly, but then what particular action, shared by all, is central to the protestant Liturgy? Or do such concerns not bother you?
Posted by: Steve Nicoloso | Feb 25, 2008 8:30:44 AM








