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April 07, 2008

The Unremembered Dead

     In the days of the Roman republic, a child grew up under the watchful eyes of his elders.  Not only those who happened to be alive at the time: looking down upon him from the lintel above the hearth would be the images of his ancestors, made from waxen castings of their faces at their death.  They became the household gods, whose example you had to live up to.  They gave the Roman a sense that his life stretched back into the misty past, and would extend into the time to come, when his own descendants in turn would revere him, in gratitude for the long heritage he had faithfully passed down to them.

     I think that that reflects a natural human longing, whether or not we have been given the revelation of eternal life in Christ.  Imagine what it might be like, not to be forgotten, but to know, as you are growing old, that you will soon be forgotten -- that, in a few short years after your death, no one will care for you, or will preserve your wisdom, or uphold what you stood for, or honor your grave.  Would that not be like dying before dying?  Isn't there a pathetic rootlessness of time as well as of place?  Maybe we can define modern life as that truncated and diminished state of having no home to call your own, no country to serve, no family tradition, maybe no family at all, no piously tended grave, no past, and no future.

     If that's the case, then our educators do a very fine job preparing children for modern life.  They too sever them from home, country, family, the past, and the future.  In the April Touchstone there's a brief report of a study done by a Stanford professor of education, who asked 2000 high school students to name the ten most famous Americans from the time Columbus stepped foot on the continent to the present.  The choices are telling.

     Washington, the only man of his time who could have kept together his ragged and miserable army at Valley Forge, to whose patience and determination and sheer audacity we owe our victory over England, did not make the list.  Jefferson, the planter and scientist and political thinker, the writer of the Declaration, did not make the list.  The great minds of Madison and Hamilton, who hammered out our federalist constitution, do not impress our scholars now; those two did not make the list.  Adams, a more acute thinker than all of them, is forgotten.  Lincoln did not make the list.  Indeed, no President at all made it, from the political left or right.  Neither of the Roosevelts, nor Wilson, nor Reagan, made the list.

     No soldier made the list.  All you who serve your nation by putting your lives on the line, you will not be remembered.  MacArthur, Doolittle, Patton, Grant, Lee, Stonewall Jackson -- no chance.  All you others who risked your lives in exploration, you too can sit down.  Lewis and Clark do not make the list, nor do Daniel Boone, Alan Shepherd, John Glenn, and Neil Armstrong.  Industrialists, we know, are just bad people, so all those whose efforts made the effete left of our day even possible, can take the ingratitude and lump it.  J. P. Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller, and Henry Ford do not make the list.  One inventor makes the list -- the only one whose name a student will recognize, without, however, knowing just how many hundreds of things he invented, and how great was the perspiration that brought his fruition to genius.  No other inventor makes the list: no Whitney, McCormack, Morse, Graham Bell (half Canadian), Goodyear, Fulton.

     People in the old days wrote in funny long boring sentences, so none of them make the list: no Emerson or Thoreau or Hawthorne or Irving.  Herman Melville may have written the greatest of all novels, if you can call Moby-Dick a novel and not a prose poem of many hundreds of pages; but Melville does not make the list.  Emily Dickinson may be the greatest woman poet ever; too bad for Emily Dickinson.  Walt Whitman, for the worse I think, revolutionized modern poetry and has been regarded as the quintessential poet of democracy.  Too bad for Walt; he is forgotten.  In fact, no men of letters make the list: no Faulkner, Hemingway, O'Neill, Frost, not even the boilerplate-writing Harriet Beecher Stowe.  Religion is boring and reminds us of our duties to those who have come before us, so no religious figure makes the list: no Jonathan Edwards, the greatest theological mind America has produced, no Billy Graham, no Fulton Sheen.

     If you're thinking of popular culture, some figures do make the list.  No first-rate actors, though, no directors, no musicians, no composers, no star athletes.  Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson, sit down.  Who's Jim Thorpe?  George Gershwin might as well have been from Mongolia.  No Glenn Miller, no Charlie Parker, not even Bob Dylan.

     Here then are the ten most famous Americans, according to our high school students.  The first three are in order; the next seven are only as I remember them.  A few (1, 8, and 9) are good choices, and another (10) would be, if he had spent his prime in America:

1. Martin Luther King
2. Harriet Tubman
3. Rosa Parks
4. Susan B. Anthony
5. Amelia Earhart
6. Oprah Winfrey
7. Marilyn Monroe
8. Benjamin Franklin
9. Thomas Edison
10. Albert Einstein

     Now before you defend the kids for choosing according to fame rather than merit, I'd note that hardly anybody outside of America would even have heard of 2, 3, and 4, and perhaps 5.  I don't wish to cast aspersions on any of the ten people up there -- if you're as fine and brave a human being as Harriet Tubman was, you're rare indeed.  But political correctness, which is not founded in any deep feeling of gratitude, determines half the choices, and celebrity the others.  I also doubt that most of the students would even have recognized the names of half of the people I mentioned. 

     Your own top ten, ladies and gentlemen, for deserved renown, not celebrity?

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1. George Washington

(The rest are in no particular order of greatness and, if I gave it more thought, some of them might not even make the list if it were limited to the ten MOST deserving to be included.)

Abraham Lincoln
Jonathan Edwards
Martin Luther King, Jr.
George Marshall
John Marshall
Thomas Jefferson
Ronald Reagan
Samuel Morse
Thomas Edison


(I could name some who should be on the list because of the harm they did to our society, but I assume you meant a list of those whose influence was positive.)

Posted by: GL | Apr 7, 2008 5:27:34 PM

I remember hearing about this poll of students. It may help (or not) to know that said students were told not to include any Presidents on said list. (At first I thought it may have been no white males but that might be a bit too bald-faced even for the poll-takers.)

Narrowing my list to 10 would take a looooong time and much careful thought, but George Washington would be at the top of my list; the man is one of my heroes.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 7, 2008 5:38:10 PM

I don't know what to make of this. On the one hand you have to note that the students were asked who they think is famous, not who they think ought to be famous. On the other hand, it appears that many of them disregarded those instructions - surely Britney Spears and Michael Jackson are much more famous than Harriet Tubman. The best I can figure is that most of the students just dutifully recited the names of people they hear about in school a lot.

Posted by: Matthias | Apr 7, 2008 5:58:33 PM

1. Robert E. Lee
2. George Washington
3. Jonathan Edwards
4. Theodore Roosevelt
5. William F. Buckley
6. Stonewall Jackson
7. Andrew Jackson
8. Ronald Reagan
9. George Marshall
10. Walter Johnson

Posted by: David Gray | Apr 7, 2008 6:17:25 PM

In no particular order:

George Washington
Thomas Edison
Thomas Jefferson
George Patton
George Marshall
JFK
MLK, Jr.
FDR
Woodrow Wilson
Abraham Lincoln
Benjamin Franklin

Honorable mentions:

James Monroe
Teddy Roosevelt
Dwight Eisenhower
Henry Lane Wilson
George Lucas (I kid, I kid)

Posted by: Michael | Apr 7, 2008 6:58:23 PM

And for reasons apparent in my previous post, my math teacher does not make the previous post. Top 11 indeed. Also "deserved renown" makes the list a little different, as it asks for people who deserve to be known even if they're not rather than just internationally memorable characters. Henry Lane Wilson, therefore, though quite the infamous interventionist in Latin America, can be struck from the list. JFK might also be moved to the "honorable mentions" section to be replaced by Teddy or Monroe.

Posted by: Michael | Apr 7, 2008 7:13:09 PM

As a Canadian, I don't feel especially qualified to make such a list. I'll say, however, that I agree with the placement of Gen. Washington at the head of the list (Anglophile though I am, there's no denying his near-supernatural greatness), and that I should like to see more regard for Jonathan Edwards, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Theodore Roosevelt, in a general sense.

Perhaps controversially (in fact, almost certainly), I would submit Ezra Pound, as well, even if only in tenth place. For all of his many, many, many faults and infamies, the impact of his life and deeds on several spheres of human endeavour, on two continents at that (three, if you count the help he and the Vorticist movement gave to Rabindranath Tagore), was like a bomb going off. Whitman certainly started something, as you say (and not something especially good, in the end), but it was Pound who ran with it. Without Pound, a vast panoply of writers and movements, from T.S. Eliot to James Joyce, from Imagism to Social Credit, would be either unrecognizable or wholly absent, and the music of one Antonio Vivaldi might have continued to be an obscure pleasure rather than an omnipresent concern.

But I do not insist upon this, obviously, as there are too many good names to choose from as it is, and Mr. Pound would have to atone for much before he would be worthy of real fame anyway.

Posted by: Nick Milne | Apr 7, 2008 7:16:46 PM

Nick,

As a Canadian, you are eminently qualified to comment on this. You give us a sense of greatness excluding blind homerism and allegiances. Let's hear aboot it, eh?

Posted by: Michael | Apr 7, 2008 7:38:26 PM

If I were to write a book, American History: Ten Heroes:

1. Washington (by a mile)
2. Lincoln
3. Jefferson
4. Robert E. Lee
5. Martin Luther King
6. Frederic Douglas
7. Edison
8. FDR
9. Jonathan Edwards
10. Eisenhower

Posted by: Ethan C. | Apr 7, 2008 7:49:15 PM

William Bradford
Samuel Adams
John Adams
George Washington
Ben Franklin
Thomas Jefferson
Dan'l Boone
John Quincy Adams
Abraham Lincoln
Ronald Reagan

Honorable mentions:
Bjarni Herjolfson, who discovered America
Leif Eiricson who lead the first attempt to plant a Christian colony in the Americas (unless you count Madoc ap Ioreth)
Davy Crockett
Jim Bowie
Lewis and Clarke
George Washington Carver
Eli Whitney
Samuel Colt
John Deere (made tilling the northern prairie possible)
Longfellow
Twain
Samoset
Squanto
King Philip
Tecumsah
Chief Joseph
Dull Knife
Sitting Bull
Admiral Byrd
Alan B Shepherd
Neil Armstrong
von Braun

And so many others

Posted by: labrialumn | Apr 7, 2008 8:13:39 PM

Labrialumn,

Given the content of your list, I would add Simon Kenton, a close friend of Daniel Boone and a captive of Tecumseh. He was as important in the settlement of the Ohio River valley as Boone, but lacked a John Filson to make him as famous.

Posted by: GL | Apr 7, 2008 9:04:14 PM

Ten Most Important Americans ("famous" would have Spears on the list) in no order:
Washington
Hamilton
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
Robert E. Lee
Ulysses Grant
Thomas Edison
Niccola Tesla
Martin Luther King

I am seriously tempted to add Jesus on two grounds:
1.) He is a formative figure in Americana (see songs like that plastic Jesus monstrosity). Sans Jesus we miss several critical moments in American history like the colonial period and the Great Awakening (with serious attachments everywhere else).
2.) He is supposed to transcend nationality.

I struggled with adding Dr. King. He was definitely an important figure but I think we're still a bit to close to put him in perspective. If not King then some early reformer like Fredrick Douglas.

Posted by: Nick | Apr 7, 2008 9:25:13 PM

He is supposed to transcend nationality

And I always thought he was the King of the Jews...

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | Apr 7, 2008 10:20:55 PM

My list would begin with George Washington and go from there. The only person that I would include in my list who hasn't already been mentioned in previous posts would be:

Walt Disney

Honestly, I'm a little hesitant to put Disney in any list which includes the truly great George Washington, but in the area of popular culture/entertainment I couldn't think of any one who has more world-wide renown and lasting influence than the creator of Mickey Mouse.

Posted by: Mrs. B | Apr 7, 2008 11:02:04 PM

What short memories we have. We can't leave out Daniel Webster, Henry Clay, or John C. Calhoun. Or speaking of Webster--Noah, to whom we owe the fact that we speak American, not British, English.

Posted by: Bill R | Apr 7, 2008 11:36:51 PM

The reason we no longer teach about great men is the death of the "Great Man" school of history, the belief that individual and exceptional human beings are in fact the driving force behind world-changing events. in its place, there arose a range of historical schools that believed impersonal, faceless "forces" drive events, and that human beings merely hang on for dear life as the roller coaster moves down the track. Thus you have Marxist historians, for whom all events are economically determined; feminist historians, for whom events are driven by the domination of the patriarchy; racial historians, for whom all events are driven by the desire of white people to oppress "people of color", and the attempts of such people of color to liberate themselves; and even "queer historians", for whom events are driven by the inability of heterosexists to come to terms with their inner gay selves.

Obviously, in such a kaleidiscope of determinisms, there is no room for live, breathing human beings, who are instead replaced by symbols and straw men that brace up the paradigm. That is why the traditional list of major figures in American history has been replaced by a group of people of marginal historical significance (based on their accomplishments and long-term influence): each represents not a real person, but is a symbol of a particular favored or oppressed class of people who need to be represented in order for history to be 'authentic" to those who read it. Thus, of the persons listed as most important by students are either non-entities or of very limited impact.

Posted by: Stuart Koehl | Apr 8, 2008 5:55:02 AM

Reading the list the students came up with, I think it's no wonder that depression is so common among young people. To be cut off from one's past in this way is crushing to the spirit. Imagine growing up thinking that your country is a bad place, barely redeemed by people like Harriet Tubman and Oprah Winfrey, and that there is no story in which you have a place.

Posted by: Judy K. Warner | Apr 8, 2008 6:06:34 AM

>>Indeed, no President at all made it, from the political left or right. Neither of the Roosevelts, nor Wilson, nor Reagan, made the list.<<

Bear in mind that the high school students who participated in this quiz were told that they could not include presidents or first ladies in their lists.

Also, they were asked to select "the most famous" -- not the most illustrious -- so they were making their choices within the context of modern-day name recognition (after all, what does "famous" mean?). By that standard, they're correct that Oprah Winfrey is considerably more "famous" than, say, Leon Lederman, although they might well agree that the accomplishments of the latter are more admirable.

One can't draw conclusions about the results of the quiz without taking into account the way in which the question was posed and the limitations that were placed on the responses.

Posted by: Francesca | Apr 8, 2008 8:00:53 AM

copland
dylan
edison
frost
grant
jefferson
king
lincoln
melville
washington

Posted by: thomas | Apr 8, 2008 8:32:46 AM

Yes, Presidents were forbidden, which also struck out several of our finest soldiers. I asked my two oldest to compile their own lists when I read the article...soldiers were well-represented, naturally. Annie Oakley and Clara Barton made the cut on my daughter's list.

It is tempting to list those whom we believe deserve renown, over those who HAVE renown. Without looking at your lists above, and trying to pick those who both have or at least until recently had great fame, AND deserve it, in our national pantheon:

"Presidentially disqualified but deserve it for roles other than the Presidency":

Theodore Roosevelt
George Washington
Andrew Jackson
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison

My "List" following the rules:

Robert E. Lee
Davy Crockett
Dolly Madison
Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce
Alvin York
"Stonewall" Jackson
Alexander Hamilton
Ben Franklin
Booker T. Washington
George Patton Jr.

An oddity of that other list which struck me immediately: Note that Amelia Earhart made the cut, but none of the male aviators who did the same things, or more impressive ones, earlier, did. Charles Lindbergh? Eddie Rickenbacker? How can you even appreciate HER story, if you've no idea what the standards were, or who she was upstaging?

Adventure stories with white male protagonists generally seem to be struck from our elementary school culture - which is a pretty lousy way to train a population with a substantial number of white males in it.

Posted by: Joe Long | Apr 8, 2008 8:44:46 AM

Ezra Pound? He belongs on the "infamous" list, I'd say. Horrible man who did horrible things to literature.

Posted by: Bob | Apr 8, 2008 8:54:55 AM

"The best I can figure is that most of the students just dutifully recited the names of people they hear about in school a lot."

Precisely - that's what it was really measuring, I think (no matter what it intended to measure).

Posted by: Joe Long | Apr 8, 2008 9:17:36 AM

My list, if it were to include those who were "great" rather than "famous" (which means, thank goodness, that I can dispense with Tom Cruise!), would be drawn from:

Albert Einstein
James Watson
Leon Lederman
Robert Millikan
Barbara McClintock
Aaron Copland
George Gershwin
Robert Frost
Sylvia Plath
Bobby Fischer
Pete Sampras
FDR
MLK
Susan B. Anthony
Georgia O'Keefe
The Wright brothers
Arthur C. Clarke

Posted by: Francesca | Apr 8, 2008 9:58:29 AM

I'll follow Joe's lead and delete the presidents and so follow the rules. (I will say, however, that Washington would have made my list had he never been president and would still have been #1 and Jefferson made my list entirely because of his accomplishment other than his presidency, which I consider highly over rated.)

Jonathan Edwards
Martin Luther King, Jr.
George Marshall
John Marshall
Samuel Morse
Thomas Edison
Eli Whitney
John D. Rockefeller
Alexander Hamilton
Carl Rogers Darnall (arguably the most important person on the list and the one least known)

Posted by: GL | Apr 8, 2008 10:01:14 AM

I am slightly concerned that nobody else put Walter Johnson on their list...

Posted by: David Gray | Apr 8, 2008 10:11:04 AM

Before reading anyone else'e responses, trying to bear in mind the question IS, after all, MOST FAMOUS Americans.

1. George Washington

2. Thomas Jefferson

3. Benjamin Franklin

4. Neil Armstrong

5. Billy Graham

6. John Wayne

7. Abraham Lincoln

8. Thomas Edison

9. Martin Luther King Jr.

10. John F. Kennedy

Posted by: TonyC | Apr 8, 2008 10:14:07 AM

David,

I considered answering with Bob Gibson.

And as to the Native Americans listed, I believe Tecumseh is the greatest.

Posted by: GL | Apr 8, 2008 10:17:53 AM

There's an old joke about how folks give directions reflecting their professions...pastors see churches as landmarks, farmers will point out fields and trees, gluttons restaurants and so forth. I think we see our history markers the same way (I did think of a couple of non-soldiers, but as I was trying NOT to be too reflective my bias showed clearly)...and the young peoples' list shows the cultural markers by which they navigate.

I suppose we can expect them to insist on seats near the front of the bus, at least. They'd be inventors and scientists, too, if math weren't hard.

Posted by: Joe Long | Apr 8, 2008 10:23:52 AM

My list for those who have formed the United States of today. It includes the famous and the infamous.

1.John Winthrop - Massachussetts bay colony leader

2. John Smith - Virginia colony leader

3. George Washington - general, president

4. Abrabam Lincoln - president

5. Robert E. Lee - general, significant for postwar reconciliation

6. Andrew Carnegie - Industrialist, could be replaced with Edison, Bell, or Rockefeller

7. Woodrow Wilson - president, utopian, gave birth to modern american state

8. Franklin Roosevelt, president, beginner of welfare state

9. Shockley, Bardeen, Brattain - inventors of the transistor, precursor to the computer

10. Hugh Hefner - hedonist, sadly, a shaper of modern American life. He could be replace with Margaret Sanger (Planned Parenthood) or Carl Djerassi (birth control pill inventor)

I am not holding up the last as praiseworthy. They have, however, surely shaped the world we see today.

Posted by: jch | Apr 8, 2008 10:24:24 AM

"If I were to write a book, American History: Ten Heroes:"

Theodore Roosevelt and Henry Cabot Lodge DID write this book ("Hero Tales From American History") - so a "great men's pick of great men":

George Washington
Daniel Boone
George Rogers Clark
Governeur Morris (!!!)
John Quincy Adams
Francis Parkman
"Stonewall Jackson"
Colonel Robert Gould Shaw
Charles Russell Lowell
General Phillip Sheridan
Lieutenant William Cushing
Admiral David Farragut
Abraham Lincoln

These from chapter titles featuring a personal name - not "The Charge at Gettysburg" or "The General Armstrong Privateer". Many of these "Hero Tales", such as "The Battle of King's Mountain", do not single out a particular hero but rather celebrate a band of them.

Roosevelt and Lodge did not so much feel constrained by who HAD renown; I think they believed they had a certain ability and responsibility to select a few who should and didn't. I note their is zero overlap between their list and the one which sparked this discussion. Soldiers, statesmen, artists; civil rights figures quite prominent, though (Robert Gould Shaw, Old Abe).

Posted by: Joe Long | Apr 8, 2008 10:37:57 AM

I like McClintock as a choice, but it's an even bet that Watson will put his foot into his mouth any time he opens it (and it can't really be blamed on age--he's been doing it ever since *The Double Helix* was published). I don't think he can reasonably be classified as "great".

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Apr 8, 2008 10:52:12 AM

Joe's comments hammer the nail home. Let's apply them to each figure in turn -- intending nothing derogatory about anyone:

Martin Luther King, Jr.: In many ways, a flawed but genuinely great man who roused the sluggish conscience of America. Arguably of greater significance than Frederick Douglass. But without the men who fought to free the nation from the overlordship of England, there would have been no Dr. King. Still, I have no quarrel with this selection.

Rosa Parks: She refused to go to the back of the bus, and thus became a symbol of the oppression of blacks. Justly so. But if Rosa Parks, why not Jackie Robinson? Jackie had to be heroic day in and day out. Baseball fans don't need me to remind them of the abuse he took (see why Dixie Walker, fan favorite in Brooklyn, had to be traded away), or of Branch Rickey's careful search for a fiery competitor who would keep that fire trammelled up for the sake of the cause. Maybe Robinson is dismissed now because he was a proud and independent man who did NOT support Kennedy in 1960 and Johnson in 1964, but rather their opponents Nixon and Goldwater, and who resisted the idea that baseball should be integrated, but the parties segregated.

Harriet Tubman: Yes, a very brave woman who did put her life on the line in a worthy cause; yet the course of events in America, even the Underground Railroad, would have gone on much the same without her. If Harriet Tubman, why not Paul Revere, Sam Adams, Ethan Allen, Nathan Hale, Chief Joseph, Francis Marion, Audie Murphy, Jimmy Doolittle, George Patton, Commodore Perry, John Paul Jones?

Amelia Earhart: You've got to be kidding. Where are the Wright Brothers, then? Or Eddie Rickenbacker, or Charles Lindbergh? Or Alan Shepard, John Glenn, and Neil Armstrong? If her death is the key, where is Gus Grissom?

Susan B. Anthony: The women's suffrage movement would have gone on without her -- and did. But there wouldn't have been a women's suffrage movement without the first suffrage movement, the one that established our republican form of government in the first place. And Susan Anthony was not a deep political thinker; she bears an uncomfortable resemblance to the one-tracked Carry A. Nation. If Susan Anthony, then, where are John Jay, John Marshall, Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry, and all the other non-President founders?

Oprah Winfrey: No comment.

Marilyn Monroe: Underrated as a comic actress, but basically a sex symbol who led a lousy life and died pathetically. If Marilyn Monroe, where are the truly great actors and actresses and pioneers of film? Or why not a writer of world stature, such as Melville? Or a composer such as Gershwin? And what are high school students doing learning about Marilyn Monroe, anyway?

Ben Franklin: No problem here, I guess. Overrated as a founder.

Thomas Edison: No problem. But it's interesting that no other inventor or industrialist makes the list. I wonder whether the students have heard of Goodyear and Howe and Whitney, never mind Goddard, Tesla, and even Morse.

Albert Einstein: Did none of his greatest work on American soil.

My top ten, with Presidents (not to say I like them all):

George Washington
Abraham Lincoln
Robert E. Lee
James Madison
John Adams
William Faulkner
George Gershwin
Jackie Robinson
Henry Ford
Benjamin Franklin

Without Presidents:

Robert E. Lee
William Faulkner
George Gershwin
Jackie Robinson
Henry Ford
Benjamin Franklin
John D. Rockefeller
Martin Luther King
Emily Dickinson
John Wayne

Posted by: Tony Esolen | Apr 8, 2008 12:14:31 PM

Although the list is disgraceful, the original post probably should be amended to make clear that presidents were not to be included. If Franklin made this list, probably Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln would have made a list that included presidents.

I wonder who would have been on a similar list fifty or a hundred years ago. I suspect it's been a long, long time since the average young person knew who Jonathan Edwards was. A list from the 1950s probably would have included people like Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett who would be as unrecognizable outside the U.S. as Tubman, Anthony, and Parks. The shaft hasn't so much been from worthy to unworthy as one from one kind of second-tier hero to another.

P.S. Don't you wish that the idea of a President and a Senator writing an adventure book for children was possible today?

Posted by: James Kabala | Apr 8, 2008 12:16:56 PM

>>>In the days of the Roman republic, a child grew up under the watchful eyes of his elders. Not only those who happened to be alive at the time: looking down upon him from the lintel above the hearth would be the images of his ancestors, made from waxen castings of their faces at their death. They became the household gods, whose example you had to live up to. They gave the Roman a sense that his life stretched back into the misty past, and would extend into the time to come, when his own descendants in turn would revere him, in gratitude for the long heritage he had faithfully passed down to them.<<<

As to this point, my wife and I have photographs of our ancestors hanging on walls and setting on table tops and bookcases all over the house. The most prominent one is of my patrilineal great-grandfather. The furthest back is of a third-great-grandmother on my mother's side.

I also have memorabilia associated with ancestors on display: a cane made from a wagon spoke from a wagon in which an ancestor rode to the gold field of California in 1849-50, a photograph of my maternal grandfather delivering a sermon along side one of his bibles, as well as his Matthew Henry Commentaries and other books, my father's war medals and other related memorabilia, etc.

I agree 100% with what the Romans were attempting to accomplish and I hope to do the same. One of our problems in today's society is that we have no sense of responsibility to those who proceeded us and, hence, no sense of responsibility to those who will follow us. That really is not a new phenomenon in America. We are a nation of people who picked up and moved from somewhere else in the world and have continued moving around ever since we got here. My genealogical studies demonstrate that this has been going on ever since the first colonist sat foot in what was then British North America. That is not conducive to a sense of ancestral roots.

Posted by: GL | Apr 8, 2008 12:20:16 PM

"And what are high school students doing learning about Marilyn Monroe, anyway?"

It should be said (for her and for Winfrey as well) that the students were not required to say people whom they had necessarily learned about in history class, but simply the first ten people who came to mind. I suspect, although history teachers notoriously have trouble getting all the way to the end of the book, that notoriety alone would have vaulted Bill Clinton and George W. Bush onto the lists if the students had been allowed to mention presidents. We should be glad Barack Obama didn't make it! (Although this story is a few months old; he might make it if it were taken today.)

Posted by: James Kabala | Apr 8, 2008 12:27:51 PM

Not that there is anything wrong with you folks, but I notice a prevalence of politicians and military leaders followed by artists, especially literary ones. Some of this must certainly be due to deficits in your science educations. To her credit Francesa introduced a few scientists into the mix. I think J. Willard Gibbs (1839-1903) (of "Gibbs free energy" fame) would have to make the cut for a list of great Americans, not that any school age child would know him from Adam. He was a titan in chemistry when America was an absolute backwater in the field. He spent all but three years of his life in New Haven. A lot of later great men all acknowledge his status, which is usually a good sign.

Posted by: W.E.D. Godbold | Apr 8, 2008 1:05:58 PM

I can't quibble much with most of the comments to this point. The greatness of Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Madison, Adams, et al speaks for itself.

But I am the least bit dumbstruck that we've gotten so deep into the comment string without a single mention of Mark Twain or Babe Ruth. Huckleberry Finn was, and in many ways remains, the quintessential American novel. And Babe Ruth was almost single-handedly responsible for baseball's transformation into its greatest era, as well as being the original mega-celebrity athlete.

Posted by: CKG | Apr 8, 2008 1:13:45 PM

"And Babe Ruth was almost single-handedly responsible for baseball's transformation into its greatest era, as well as being the original mega-celebrity athlete."

But sports greats just aren't real "greats". Do we remember any past culture's athletes at all? Spartacus, maybe? Or the guy who died running the original marathon from the battle of Marathon?

Jesse Owens, maybe Joe Louis...no, I'm going to stick to my guns, even though I've got a great poster on my office wall: "Private Joe Louis says 'We're going to do our part and we're going to win because we're on God's side'." They've got him in a WWI-era helmet for the poster, maybe ca. early '42. Great guy, great athlete, not "Great Man" (tm).

No athletes made the schoolchildren's "cut" either, though, and surely not from MY scruples; interesting.

Posted by: Joe Long | Apr 8, 2008 1:42:27 PM

>>I suspect it's been a long, long time since the average young person knew who Jonathan Edwards was.<<

Not so. The Great Awakening is required curriculum in early American history through high school, at least in Washington State. We all know the name, though I doubt most of us appreciate the man who bore it. I'm just not inclined to believe he belongs on the list, though I can certainly understand putting him there. What of the Mathers? Whitefield? Tennent? On a related note, ThinkChristian.net pointed me to this audio of Mark Dever of Capitol Hill Baptist Church preaching Edwards' (in?)famous "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" word for word. After having read the transcript as a primary text in history class, I have to say that sermons are, after all, meant to be preached. I would bet the Touchstone crowd would appreciate it.

Bearing in mind that preisdents and first ladies are not allowed (well, there goes Washington, Jefferson, Monroe, Lincoln, the Roosevelts and Wilson, sadly), my new list:

-Robert E. Lee
-John C. Calhoun
-Andrew Carnegie
-George Marshall
-George Patton
-Benjamin Franklin
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton (for better or worse)
-Edward R. Murrow
-Bill Gates (I find it funny that he didn't make any earlier lists--despite being so "current," I think we can faithfully blame Microsoft for putting a computer on my desk to read this here Mere Comments.)
-Henry Ford

Posted by: Michael | Apr 8, 2008 1:45:51 PM

>>And Babe Ruth was almost single-handedly responsible for baseball's transformation into its greatest era, as well as being the original mega-celebrity athlete.<<

Not true at all. The end of the Dead-ball Era was certainly helped along by Ruth, but his home run prowess wasn't apparent early in his career--he was a pitcher for crying out loud! The continued use of balls that had long since been worn out in Major League games was retired at the dawn of the Babe's career, which meant he was strikning "good" balls consistently. Not to mention that physically maniuplating the ball (spitting, tacking, etc.) was outlawed along with intentional walks. If we're gonna credit "great" athletes, let's look at some others:

-The M&M Boys (Maris/Mantle for the uninitiated)
-Joe Dimaggio
-Lou Gehrig (someone go rent Pride of the Yankees)
-Ken Griffey, Jr.--singlehandedly responsible for the rise of major sporting endorsements in baseball with his Nike contract and Nintendo games; one of the few 90's greats who hasn't come under suspicion of steroid use even once; guaranteed Hall of Famer on his first ballot.
-Whitey Ford
-Ty Cobb
-Ted Williams
-"Shoeless" Joe Jackson (despite the Black Sox Scandal, which is questionable)
-Jackie Robinson
-George V. Rickle, Sr.

Outside of baseball:

-Wilt Chamberlain
-Arthur Ashe
-Pete Sampras
-Irvine "Magic" Johnson
-Johnny Unitas

Posted by: Michael | Apr 8, 2008 2:11:29 PM

Michael, you and I are the only ones who thought to include John C. Calhoun. Anti-Southern prejudice, I tell you! ;-) But you'll have to drop Whitefield--he was English. Edwards was simply a great man, period, whatever you may think of his theology. He was accomplished in many fields, and was the first president of Princeton to boot!

Posted by: Bill R | Apr 8, 2008 2:18:31 PM

Bill,

Edwards was English, too. The Revolution hadn't occured yet. Besides, it begs the question of the Mathers--Cotton, of course, did some of the earliest experiments with plant hybrids and was largely responsible for the introduction of innoculation practices in the Colonies. This goes without stating his work on early church history (Magnaila Christi Americana) or his connection qua Increase and the Witch Trials. Sometimes you have to cut folks that might belong on the list. Of course, Log College, the "precursor" to Princeton comes from the Tennents. What would Edwards be president of without that? It's the curse of "only ten." Henry Clay isn't on my list, and he probably should be.

Posted by: Michael | Apr 8, 2008 2:30:47 PM

As one who has never in her life watched an Oprah Winfrey show, I'd say in Oprah's defense that her achievements are not insignificant. Like other famous Americans such as Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates, she has fulfilled the most appealing of American dreams. She overcame significant obstacles to achieve extreme wealth and success, and then gave back to society by becoming a generous philanthropist (Carnegie overcame poverty, Gates purportedly has Aspergers Disorder, and Winfrey overcame poverty and childhood sexual abuse.)

She wouldn't have been my first pick, but I can see why many people admire what she has done with her life.

Posted by: Francesca | Apr 8, 2008 2:55:21 PM

Don't have time for a full top ten, but on the subject of scientists who ought to be famous I'll add:

Richard Feynman (physics)
John von Neumann (math and computer science)
Paul Cohen (math)
Donald Knuth (computer science)

Posted by: Matthias | Apr 8, 2008 3:13:29 PM

Should there be category divisions for the top ten: say two soldiers, two statesmen, two scientists, a composer, a poet, a theologian, an artist? Special Renaissance Man category for the occasional Thomas Jefferson?

Or we could go for proportional representation of the population, inflating mediocrities where necessary to keep the scoresheet even, within arbitrary categories...you know, like college admissions.

The original results are heavily skewed to science and invention, actually - the only refuge from the great god Identity Politics which rules the rest of the list. Surprised that George W. Carver hasn't supplanted any of the other scientists, though. Somebody has the wrong press agent; his combination of legitimate accomplishment and group membership should have catapulted him higher.

Posted by: Joe Long | Apr 8, 2008 3:25:58 PM

Well, Gene, I would say that Carl Rogers Darnall qualifies as a scientist. He was a professor of chemistry and a surgeon. His great contribution was originating the technique for liquid chlorination of drinking water. I still maintain that modern sanitation and antibiotics are more responsible for advanced longevity and improved health in our time than any other developments -- probably all other developments combined. I suppose that he was more an applied scientist than a theoretical one, but that still counts, doesn't it?

Most of my list consist of representatives for a class of great individuals. Thus Edwards represents the Great Awakening and quality higher education, MLK the fight for civil rights, John Marshall the development of American law, George Marshall the winning of WWII and the creation of the post-war world, Morse communication technology, Edison electrification and illumination, Whitney modern agriculture technology, Hamilton the establishment of the American economic policy and putting the new republic on a solid financial footing, Rockefeller the establishment of the modern corporation and the adoption of oil to power the modern world, and Darnall modern sanitation. Others could be named in each of those categories and I really have no criticism of choosing, say, Douglass rather than King or Bell rather than Morse, Westinghouse or Tesla rather than Edison, or Deere or McCormick rather than Whitney. The problem with a list of ten is that one may only list one or two people to represent what was really a combined effort of several.

Posted by: GL | Apr 8, 2008 3:39:59 PM

"Edwards was English, too. The Revolution hadn't occured yet." - Michael

So then the Pilgrims were just English folk out on a holiday? I don't think so.

Posted by: Bill R | Apr 8, 2008 4:22:21 PM

Scientists:

* Albert Michelson (measured the speed of light, "luminiferous ether" went the way of phlogiston)
* Robert Millikan (measured the charged of the electron)

Others:

* Adoniram Judson hasn't been named yet (improved America by leaving it?)
* William Penn hasn't been named yet, and don't some of you live in Philly?
* Thomas Paine, either (though I don't entirely admire him)
* Steinbeck ("Of Mice and Men" is dear to me)

Of those who've already been named, Copland and Wilson (if presidents allowed) are on my list as well.

Posted by: Clifford Simon | Apr 8, 2008 4:24:34 PM

>>So then the Pilgrims were just English folk out on a holiday? I don't think so.<<

No, you wouldn't. And I rather believe you shouldn't.

But until these United States severed ties with the Crown, her population was of English subjects and therefore English citizens. It seems sectarian and triumphalist to write off Whitefield because he was born back on the Isle even though his work and life in America clearly identify him with the New World. He died in Massachusetts in 1770. So because he doesn't have the benefit of another 13 years to his life to be an American citizen at the close of the Revolution, he is English? Edwards needs 25 years to get to 1783, but he's American! The one of us who dies first can ask Edwards and Whitefield to self-identify. I'm sure both will be far more concerned with the Throne than nationalism, but, eh, whatever.

Does the poll require "native-born" Americans? I didn't know it had the same qualifications as the presidential office.

Posted by: Michael | Apr 8, 2008 4:44:13 PM

We're off on a tangent, Michael, but just to close it: Edwards was born in the Colonies and lived here his entire life (as had his ancestors). He never lived in England. Whitefield was born in England and lived there his entire life, although he visited the Colonies on at least two extended occasions in response to invitations to preach here. He died in Massachusetts while on such a mission.

Posted by: Bill R | Apr 8, 2008 4:56:00 PM

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