Breaking News: Orthodox Leave NCC

Dearborn, Michigan. July 28, 2005.This afternoon the Archdiocesan Convention of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America voted overwhelmingly to leave the National Council of Churches USA. The Archdiocese is holding its annual convention this week in Dearborn, Michigan.

The action was not a temporary “suspension” of membership, but a formal withdrawal from the NCC. The clergy unanimously approved the withdrawal, followed by a unanimous vote of the lay delegates supporting the move. An announcement of the final vote was met with thunderous applause by the Convention.

Reasons given for the withdrawal include the general liberalism of the NCC, whose General Secretary, Bob Edgar, withdrew his signature from a statement defining marriage as being between a man and a woman.

Metropolitan PHILIP, head of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese, was reportedly outspoken in calling for the church to withdraw from the NCC, stating that the relationship had proven fruitless.

The National Council of Churches USA has listed on its website "36 member communions and denominations." It now has 35.

Note: An interview about this vote and its consequences with the Very Rev. Olof Scott, the newly-elected chairman of the Department of Interfaith Relationships, is scheduled to air on Ancient Faith Radio this coming Sunday, July 31, 2005, at 5 PM EDT.

Comments

[Matthias]

What fantastic news. Interesting that there had been a fair amount of buzz on the web about the OCA considering withdrawal from the NCC, but I had no idea the question was on the table for the Antiochians.

A quarter of the denominations in the NCC are Orthodox or at least call themselves Orthodox. If all or most of them leave it will be the beginning of the end for the NCC.

[Theodora Elizabeth]

Actually, it's the National Council of Churches USA, not the National Council of the Churches of Christ, which I'm told is a Protestant sect.

Matthias, I'm told the OCA did not make the same choice as the Antiochians.

[D Dalrymple]

As an Orthodox Christian of the Antiochian Archidiocese, I can only say: THANKS BE TO GOD! I'm so proud of our bishops and priests for this move.

[Fr. Jason Kappanadze]

Glory to God for this bold Antiochian witness for Christ in the face of secularism, syncretism and reletavism. I pray that the way this move was led and accomplished in true conciliarity will light a fire to burn up the apathy and fear that hold others back.

[Gregory Erickson]

To clarify the OCA position: This excerpt is from the Orthodox Relations paper submitted to the delegates of the 14th AAC held earlier this month in Toronto:

"The most advisable course for the Orthodox Church in America would be eventually to withdraw from the NCC and the WCC. This movement towards withdrawal should not be motivated by any “fundamentalism” or “anti-ecumenism.” To the contrary, the announcement of our withdrawal should be framed in the context of a defense of the proper and necessary ecumenical vision. Those ecumenical streams or contexts which hold theological promise – for example, the Faith and Order streams of the NCC and the WCC – should be affirmed. And ecumenical Christian relations should be sought with conservative Christian bodies. The Orthodox Church in America’s withdrawal from the NCC and WCC should also be done in consultation with the other Orthodox Churches which are members of these ecumenical organizations."

It's just a matter of time.

[Fr. Hans Jacobse]

Three cheers to the AOC for suspending membership in the NCC! This will hopefully start the exodus of all Orthodox jurisdictions from an organization that militates against the values of the Christian moral tradition and compromises the Orthodox witness in society.

[Scott Walker]

Fantastic! Next to go will be the OCA.

[Fr Matthew Thurman]

Hopefully all of the other Orthodox listed on the NCC site will follow suit and pull out post haste.

Also, FWIW, we Antiochians have a biennial "Archdiocesan Convention," not a "General Convention." After all, we are not Episcopalians!

[Christopher Little]

Huzzah!

[Teresa Polychronis]

Thanks be to God for answered prayer! Glory to Jesus Christ! May all the other SCOBA members go forth and do likewise -- pronto!

[Theodore McGill]

This is wonderful news!

[Rev. Prescott Jay Erwin]

Actually, in reply to Theodora Elizabeth, there is only one such organization and it is called the "National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA" (NCCC/USA or NCCC). It is quite telling, however, that has become more expedient in talking about themselves and even in their current logo to leave out the name of Christ, designating themselves merely NCC.

Also, the NCCC "communion" consists of "Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, historic African American and Living Peace member faith groups," so it is not purely Protestant and wasn't intended to be from the beginning.

It does not appear that the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), a sister communion of AOCA along with the Greek Orthodox, etc., in SCOBA and historical descendent of the Orthodox Church in Russia, even discussed their relationship with NCCC at their "All-American Council" earlier this month.

[Christopher]

THANKS BE TO GOD! This has been long overdue. Let us pray that the OCA and the Greeks will not tarry much longer...

[Peter Kim]

It's about time. When is the NCC changing their name to the Association of Christian Socialists?

[Jay Warden]

Sadly it seems everyone wants their cake and eat it too. My impression is that the Orthodox Church in America (OAC)is interested in what it can get from the ecumenical world and not what it can contribute to the issues of the world. I am sadden by the shouts of happiness over this action by OAC members. May in their search for peace, they find others like themselves.

[George D. Karcazes]

Congratulations to Metropolitan Philip and the clergy and laity of the Antiochian Archdiocese. Having acheived "self rule" they did not need to consult with anyone half a world away.

Likewise, since SCOBA is not an "Episcopal Assembly" much less a Synod of all of the canonical Orthodox Bishops in North America, "consultation" with SCOBA on this issue would appear to be a little more than "deciding not to decide"..

Let's pray that the OCA, GOA and other Orthodox "jurisdictions" follow suit quickly.
And, let us also pray, that the AOCA, having led the way on this issue, will lead the way to an administratively united, autocephalous Orthodox Church in North America, under a single synod of canonical Orthodox Bishops.

[Dean Calvert]

Leadership...one again they are first at Antioch!!!

Hello...anyone home?

Many Years to His Eminence Metropolitan Philip...the true leader of the Orthodox Church in this country.

While others "talk about doing," His Eminence "does."

Best Regards,
Dean Calvert

[Peter Aaron]

With the Antiochian's withdrawal from the council, I pray that they double their dedication to the Orthodox Peace Fellowship, as the National Council of Churches was well known for an inclusive, non defensive, non exclusive, motion towards peace and liberty. Further participation in the peace fellowship would compensate for this loss.

[Peter Aaron]

With the Antiochian's withdrawal from the council, I pray that they double their dedication to the Orthodox Peace Fellowship, as the National Council of Churches was well known for an inclusive, non defensive, non exclusive, motion towards peace and liberty. Further participation in the peace fellowship would compensate for this loss.

[Scott Walker]

Jay, this OCA (not OAC) member cannot figure out what in the world you're talking about. The only justification for Orthodox participation in the ecumenical movement was to encourage Christians to the only true ecumenism: a return to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Having decided that there is no hope of this occurring through the NCC, the Antiochian Orthodox have, most appropriately, opted out. Good for them. I pray the OCA will quickly follow suit. And, Peter. Really. The NCC never met a leftward despot it didn't like. "Peace and liberty"? Then why are they still deeply in love with the likes of Castro, for heaven's sake? They were in love with the Sandinistas, too, if you'll recall. What "loss" is it to depart an apostate body of apologists for any tyrant who calls himself a socialist?

[Christopher Little]

Peter Aaron prays, "with the Antiochian's withdrawal from the council, . . that they double their dedication to the Orthodox Peace Fellowship." I, on the other hand, hope they'll view OPF with a healthy degree of discernment.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg20.html

[Theodora Elizabeth]

I concur with Scott Walker, and I'll even go a bit further. The OPF is something to stay far, far away from. The OPF folks just leave a bad taste in my mouth. The impression I get is that they want to apologize for being Westerners, much like some in the U.S. did after 9/11.

[Juli]

Good for the OCA. Many of us pray that the OCA will remain in conversation with other American Christians. Thanks too, Peter, for the good words about OPF.

[Peter C.]

Just to clarify, Fr. Hans, the Convention did not vote to suspend membership, but to formally and totally withdraw from membership in the (as Christopher Johnson like to call it) the “National Council of Churches Nobody Goes to Anymore.”

[Christopher]

Unfortunately, the OPF is misnamed. It should be titled "Orthodox PACIFIST Fellowship". They seemed deeply confused about their own philosophy - claiming they are not pacifistic but then arguing for a "lesser evil" position on war. They confuse the Peace of Christ (and the blood of the martyrs) with the bloody, violent and worldly philosophy of pacifism...

[MAtt]

I have no high regard for OPF and would not mind if their organization ceased to exist. But the head of the OPF wrote a book (Praying with Icons) that changed my life and brought me into Holy Orthodoxy. Lets be careful to point out the errors of the OPF without disrespecting our brothers who are members of the OPF.

[Christopher]

I see no disrespect here - only respectful criticism of their (very public) philosophy...

[Scott Walker]

Juli, nobody is suggesting that the OCA quit the "conversation" with other American Christians. The fact is that the majority of American Christians are not members of communions in the NCC...folks you may have heard of, like Southern Baptists and Roman Catholics. I do lots of conversing with American Christians when I meet my brother (Baptist) or my sister (Reformed) and so, I imagine, do most other Orthodox. But please tell me what is gained by continuing association with apostasy? We as Orthodox have more important things to do than singing "Kumbaya" with people who are rapidly abandoning the historical Christian faith. Regarding the OPF, I can't say I agree with their pacifism, but Jim Forrest has done sterling work in his books "Praying With Icons" and "The Ladder Of The Beatitudes", and I think there's room in the inn for several shades of opinion on matters of war and peace.

[Rev. Prescott Jay Erwin]

So have any of you read about the following action in EC/USA (excerpts from article below)? What are your thoughts?

"Canon Blasts Bishop's Illegal Seizure of Dissenter Church" by Jim Brown (Agape Press)... A conservative Anglican leader is expressing shock and dismay over the actions of a liberal bishop who forcibly seized an orthodox Episcopal church in Connecticut because of its leader's biblical opposition to same-sex "marriage" and the ordination of practicing homosexual clergy... Connecticut's Bishop Andrew Smith recently made an unannounced visit to St. John's Episcopal Church in Bristol and temporarily suspended Rector Mark Hansen from all of his activities as a priest... With the help of 12 assistants, the bishop dismantled the church's website, hacked into its computers, and gained access to financial records. Smith then proceeded to install a homosexual-affirming female priest as pastor of the parish..."

[Renee Zitzloff]

I am wondering how many of the people above who are criticizing the OPF have ever read the OPF mission/vision statement?

How many of you has ever had a personal conversation with any OPF members?

How many have read one or more issues of the OPF publication In Communion?

How many have perused the OPF website www.incommunion.org?

[Christopher]

Renee, I have done all the above. I know of several bloggers who also have done so and are reasonably, charitably, critical of the OPF (e.g. Fr. Johannes Jacobse of www.orthodoxytoday.org - there are many other examples). I have personally debated quite extensively with Mr. Jim Forest on a couple of blogs and email.

Surely, as Christians, we are to be honest. In saying that the OPF is a pacifist organization, it is not an underhanded put down or rhetorical device - it is the simple and plain truth (just read "In Communion"). It is also the simple and plain truth that the position of is not shared by the Church. I am to turn my cheek, even hand over my cloak to my enemy. I am NOT to sacrifice my life, my wife, my children on the un-holy and bloody alter called "peace". Pacifism is a monstrous philosophy, and the God of Love and His Son and His Holy Spirit do NOT call us to it...

[Renee Zitzloff]

Dear Christopher,
God bless you and thank you for your response. I asked the questions in my first posting because I was trying to ascertain where people are at regarding OPF.I hate to start out a relationship by making assumptions.

I have been and am still a member of OPF for five or six years. I helped to get OPF/NA (OPF in North America) started, and am currently the coordinator of an OPF chapter we started in the Minneapolis area about 1-1/2 years ago. I also helped to write the much discussed "Plea for Peace" that was released before the United States launched the pre-emptive attack on Iraq.

My intention on this posting space was to make myself available to anyone who would like to ask me any questions about OPF as an organization, any of our work, or statements that have been made.

However, I must be clear that in some instances I can only speak for myself, as OPF is a very diverse group. We have disagreements among ourselves on many different issues including war and all the controversy and questions that surround it. The only reason I hesitate to call OPF a pacifist organization is that those members who are definitely not pacifist might take umbrage at that label. I have also looked in the vision/mission statement for the word pacifist and cannot find it there. In other words, there are many reasons that people join OPF, and one does not have to be a pacifist to do so. There is no litmus test.

When we started our OPF chapter, one of the first people we asked to be on our advisory board is a Vietnam veteran who does not agree with the strictly pacifist viewpoint at all. This is one reason we invited him onto the board. We also believe that the experts on
war(s) tend to be the ones that actually fight in them. We want to be respectful and open to their viewpoints and honor them for the sacrifices they have made.

Anyhow, here I am if you or anyone has any questions for me.

Blessings of the Dormition fast (and soon to be feast!)
Renee Zitzloff

[Christopher]

Renee,

I do have a question you might be able to answer. I have attended an Antiochian parish(s) for a number of years now. The same set of resolutions that pulled us out of the NCC (Thanks be to God!) also has this:

http://www.antiochian.org/1123163067

Notice the language in the second line item where it says "support for the concept of war which is “pre-emptive” or “justifiable”". I find this quite disturbing language (talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water!). While myself and my parish priest believe it to be mistaken language, arising from the fact that Met. Phillip is politically opposed to the war on terror, still one wonders.

Do you know if any OPF members were present at the Antiochian convention, and if so did they write/influence the above sentence/resolution? Thanks in advance!

[Renee Zitzloff]

Hi Christopher,
That is a good question which I cannot answer. However, I will send it to Jim Forest and ask him to post it to the OPF discussion list (which I am no longer a part of), and see if anyone on this list has any knowledge on this subject. I will detach your name from the question for now.

blessings,
Renee Zitzloff

[Renee Zitzloff]

HI Christopher and others,
Here is one answer I received from your question which was posted on the OPF discussion list. I paste it here verbatim, and I think it bears careful reading.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Renee

"I attended the Convention, and was present at the Assembly for this development. Because there's a lot of other business to attend to, the format of these Archdiocesan assemblies simply doesn't allow for much discussion about topics like this. In this case, the Resolution was presented, there were a few comments from those in attendance through microphones available throughout the banquet room, and the Resolution was passed with substantial applause. Key, however, is the broader context of the discussion -- what there was of it -- about our Archdiocesan involvement with the NCC.

The proposal (which then became the Resolution) was presented this way: the chairman of the Inter-Orthodox and Inter-Faith Relations committee addressed us from the stage, noting that in his twenty-nine years of representing the Antiochian Archdiocese at NCC events, our participation had yet to yield anything we would consider fruitful that would warrant our continued membership. And, as the positions of the NCC and most of its member churches grow more "extreme" as the years pass [and therefore less hospitable to dialogue, properly understood], our best course, perhaps, is to withdraw from the NCC and pursue ecumenical relationships in some other format.

Discussion with others after the meeting suggested that NCC positions have become ideologies. One can imagine what happens to "dialogue" then.

About the reference to "pre-emptive" or "justifiable" war, there was no discussion about this particular point or its language. I infer that the Resolution simply rejects the "justifications" for the current war as those justifications 1) had first been presented to the world, 2) then had been proven false, 3) now are re-packaged as other justifications. In other words, the Resolution probably rejects all duplicity in contemporary discussions about justifications for going to war. Remember, many of those in attendance were Arab Christians who have a different story to tell about the Middle East than what commonly reaches our eyes and ears.

Again, though, there was NO discussion at the Assembly about current wars in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Fr John Oliver"

[Christopher]

Thanks for the information Renee. Actually, I am (in one sense) reassured by the fact that the natural inefficiency of such meetings/conventions/assemblies is how such resolutions get "passed" or "approved" (one reason you likely never find me at one ;). It would of course be a sad state affairs if a large group of Orthodox clergy and laity actually discussed/debated a resolution which throws out the 2000 year Christian virtue tradition of Just Defense. Again, thanks!

[Renee Zitzloff]

Earlier today I posted some information here that the moderator removed after contacting me and explaining his reasons, which I think are valid.

The brief e-mail discussion I had with him helped me to clarify a few things that were bothering me about this on-line discussion that referenced OPF. In one of the postings above by Theodora, she expressed that "The OPF folks leave a bad taste in my mouth." Ouch. It is strange to come upon a conversation and find that you have been dimissed as "bad tasting" by someone who has never met or talked to you. One reason I offered to answer any questions and posted the material subsequently removed, was that I thought if I could put a face to a member of OPF maybe we wouldn't seem as scary or terrible as some people seem to think we are. Of course, that is vain on my part, because someone could meet me or read my posting and be put off even more! :o)

I have been on more than one blog and/or discussion list when I've been dismayed by the way people or groups of people can be easily dismissed by a quick label or a negative offhand remark. You can almost hear people dusting their hands off.

Everyone should be very free to offer their opinions and disagree, but we can depersonalize things by the words we use. If Theodora had said, "some of the policies or positions the OPF take leave a bad taste in my mouth, I would not have felt defensive or excluded.That gives me something to work with. The words she used however, sounded dismissive of me and other OPF'er as a persons--even if she did not mean it that way.

I appreciate the interaction I've had on this blog regarding OPF. If anyone is further interested in dialogue or knowing more about the reasons I believe in nonviolent peacemaking, please feel free to e-mail me personally. We can talk, or I can share some writing I've done on this subject.
Renee

[BettyBrewer]

Got pictures of big,ebony Bertha from White House of 1995? Had HUGE BOTTOM and very NAKED! Placed so White House visitors could all see this life-sized statue. Then Clintons fought over Xmas cards,leaving Chealsea out of pictures. pp102,103 in "Unlimited Access" by Gary Aldrich

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