Here Sits Sweden

     Blog star James Altena has forwarded me this article on the collapse of Sweden, under the regime of its intellectual elites (forwarded to him by our contribuing editor, William Tighe).  It really is a breathtaking rush to cultural suicide, though it is hard to call it that when the literati and politiques in charge are actually denying that Sweden has ever had a culture to kill, or a history to remember.  Sweden, they say, is by its non-nature "multicultural," which means a-cultural, and therefore capable of receiving any and all other cultures, including Islamic culture.  A third of the population of Malmo is now Muslim.  That apparently is all right, as the great Swedish Lutheran Church is just an arm of the state now, and a withered arm at that.

     Nobody in my family is Swedish, but some years ago my daughter took to learning about the country -- its regional folk customs, its music, its history, and its language.  We have examples of rosemaling all over our house; she bakes saffron buns on Saint Lucy's Day; we even found in an antique shop a hand-signed print by the amiable watercolorist Carl Larson (the dealer didn't know what he had, but we knew).  My daughter taught herself Swedish, and has been singing in a Swedish choir here in Rhode Island.  That choir goes back over a hundred years; Swedes love to sing, or loved to sing, and formed male and female choirs wherever they settled in the United States.  Now her choir, and the male choir that preceded it, are on hard times, as it's almost impossible to recruit young people to sing.  Still they try, and still they cherish the Swedish folk songs, which they sing in Swedish, though they are interspersed in their recitals with old-fashioned American folk tunes and newer American show tunes.  I've hung around these good people for a long time, and I'm impressed by their love of the old country, and their (for the most part) having persisted in the Christian faith.  They are acutely aware that the Swedish heritage they cherish is not exactly cherished by the leaders of Sweden itself.  I feel sorry for them.  Meanwhile, the family in Sweden is collapsing, and instead of asking whether the virulent feminism and sexual antinomianism they have adopted has something to do with it, they seem to be mounting a small crusade to cause boys and men to sit down at the potty.  I kid you not.  Tell it to Abdullah.

     So in that spirit of fellowship for my Lutheran brothers in the faith, for Swedes who love their history, for the spirit of Gustav Vasa and King Erik and Gustav Adolph, and also for those poor Larses and Nilses who have to be pestered politically even at the potty, I offer this hymn.

Leftist hearts need no more bleeding:
We at last have found our Eden
On the empty slopes of Sweden.

Call us not a land of wafflers!
We that bred the great Adolphus
Now build Saabs, and lady golfers.

We can boast our share of honors:
Volvos haul in lots of kroners,
And Bjorn Borg beat Yimmy Connors.

Neither Orthodox nor Arian,
Our church-state is prelapsarian,
Tenderly totalitarian.

But we're kind: when someone sneezes,
You may mention "God" or "Jesus".
That's a gospel that will please us.

Our blest land let none disparage,
Where first comes the baby carriage --
If at all -- without a marriage.

Let the praise be hyperbolic!
Here no babies wake with colic;
Men are free, and alcoholic.

Still some serpent hates our being
Happy in our glogg and skiing:
Tempts small boys to stand while p--ing!

Should some Swedish Rip Van Winkle
Wake in Stockholm, all a wrinkle,
Still he'd have to sit to tinkle.

So he sits, obeys our rule or he
Finds how fast we punish foolery --
Confiscate his family jewlery!

We'll reward him when he waxes
Pliant, and at last relaxes:
Down he goes, and up his taxes.

Let none think our ways are dotty.
Man, we find, learns to be naughty
Once he stands to use the potty.

Soon as he has doffed the diaper
For his pants and paper wiper,
He inclines to play the viper.

Little Lars must be a Viking,
Bred for slashing, slaying, striking --
Standing up is to his liking.

Lest his stabbing be a menace,
Slaying gals at golf and tennis,
Let him not know where his pen is.

Fascists sure will sneer and snicker --
Prudence leaves no room to dicker,
Turning pojkar into flickor.

When the Danish despot martyred
Swedes upon his crowning, slaughtered
As their slavish nation tottered,

Standing, Vasa came attacking,
Sent the king and princes packing!
"God's my shepherd, I'm not lacking!"

Said that bold lad Martin Luther,
Caught unbuttoned by his mother,
"Here I stand, I can no other!"

Standing, as a Christian oughter,
He dispensed his holy water,
Simul justus et peccator.

Upright, he affirmed with brio
What tremendous payment we owe
Unto God, and not Pope Leo.

He sought freedom, reformation --
Urged his land in indignation,
"You're no ruin!  You're a nation!"

When the birds of war were landing
On the Polish plains, commanding
Came the brave Gustavus, standing.

There he fell, there he was sainted.
Heroes often are but painted,
But not he -- he never fainted.

See the danger of such power!
We've cut short the manly shower.
This is Sweden's finest hour.

Now all's peace and -- what the -- dammit,
Who's set fire to -- door's locked, ram it!
Oh, it's only you, Mohammed.

What -- you say you've mugged a parson?
Burnt his chapel, act of arson?
Round up all the men named Larsen.

Never mind our thoughtless kidding.
Pretty please to do our bidding;
If you don't we'll take it -- sitting.

Comments

[GL]

Tony,

Will this be included in your collected poems? ;-)

[Mairnéalach]

Sigh... such talent, piddled away.

[smh]

Some dirge for the Swedish nation.
Here I stand to give ovation.

(Choose your Latin o-v root:
Praise, or eggs, or sheep, all work.)

[Kamilla]

"Sweden, they say, is by its non-nature "multicultural," which means a-cultural, and therefore capable of receiving any and all other cultures,"

Gee, wouldn't it have been nice for them to have that attitude when they were oppressing my people - the Norwegians.

harumph,

Kamilla

[The young fogey]

Like your daughter did with Swedish culture I did with Russian. I speak and sing it.

P.J. O'Rourke visited and wrote about Sweden years ago and of course criticised its statism and socialism but admitted their system worked for now and while it wouldn't work in America the Swedes were pretty happy with it.

It is a shame about the de-Christianisation of the country and the slide into Modernism of its church.

One of my favourite Christmas carols now is a Swedish one I think from the late 1800s: 'Gläns över sjö och strand' ('Star of Bethlehem': 'Shining over sea and shore'). Sounds like a good Lutheran hymn.

Best barb here:

...mounting a small crusade to cause boys and men to sit down at the potty. I kid you not. Tell it to Abdullah.

LOL!

IIRC Sigrid Undset was from Denmark.

And IIRC the Swedes still tell Norwegian jokes (their version of Irish jokes in England or Polish jokes in America - probably the same recycled jokes). They see the Norse as their thick country cousins.

[James A. Altena]

Tony, your poem is hysteerically funny and clever!

"Blog star" -- is that anything like the dog star? (Woof!)

Time to share my favorite (actually almost my only) Swede joke. (You have to imagine Swedish accented English for this to work.)

Sven and Olaf are laid off at the local factory in Minnesota and go to apply for unemployment insurance. Sven goes in first, and the clerk asks, "What was your position?"
"Panty stitcher."
"Panty stitcher?"
"Ja, I sew waist and leg bands in ladies' panties."
"That's unskilled labor. You get $500 a month."
The clerk cuts Sven a check and he goes out. Olaf comes in.
"What was your position?"
"Diesel fitter."
"Oh, that's skilled labor. You get $1,000 a month."
The clerk cuts Olaf his check and the lattter goes out. Sven takes one look at Olaf's check and comes storming back into the office.
"How come Olaf get $1,000 and I only get $500?"
"Well, he's skilled labor and you're unskilled labor."
"What you mean, 'skilled labor'?"
"Well, he's a diesel fitter. You're just a panty stitcher."
"What skilled labor?? I sew waist and leg bands in ladies' panties. Lady comes into buy panties; Olaf chooses pair of panties, stretches them, and says, 'Ja, dese 'll fit 'er'...."

[DGP]

>>IIRC Sigrid Undset was from Denmark.<<

That's more than a little misleading, as she was raised in Norway, and Norway was the "homeland" she loved. I'm not certain why Dr. Esolen should use her as an example of the love of Sweden, but surely she loved her homeland and at least by analogy represents the patriotism he'd prefer.

[Ethan Cordray]

I don't wanna be "that guy," but...isn't rosemaling Norwegian?

I dub thee the Anthony, the Triplet King. Ogden Nash would be proud.

[Steve Nicoloso]

That may be the funniest thing I've ever read!

[Rob Grano]

Do any of you have an IKEA store near you? We have one here, and if there is such a thing as a politically-correct furniture store, IKEA is it. The diversity and tolerance on display is enough to make you upchuck your lingonberries. They do sell great Swedish coffee though.

[Michael]

>>Do any of you have an IKEA store near you? We have one here, and if there is such a thing as a politically-correct furniture store, IKEA is it. The diversity and tolerance on display is enough to make you upchuck your lingonberries. They do sell great Swedish coffee though.<<

There's an IKEA near here, but I don't imagine it as a politically correct furniture store. But maybe that's because I live in Seattle and our definition of "politically correct" is slowly but surely coming close to acceptance of public homosexual sex.

[Yaknyeti]

My Swedish-background family has shocked a few true Swedes by mentioning that we still eat lutefisk as part of Christmas dinner. It's fun to see how immigrants can make traditional parts of their culture that the home country has long since discarded.

But it's one thing to be throwing out hardship foods like lutefisk, and another to be discarding one's culture wholesale. Grandma won't be happy to hear about this.

[Rob Grano]

True, Michael. Seattle's way more advanced than Pittsburgh; we're still attempting to come to grips with earrings on men. ;-)

[William Tighe]

When the Danish despot martyred
Swedes upon his crowning, slaughtered
As their slavish nation tottered,

Standing, Vasa came attacking,
Sent the king and princes packing!
"God's my shepherd, I'm not lacking!"

*************************

Hmm, well, Gustav Vasa, an unpleasant lying demagogue if ever there was one, was perhaps the most unfortunate curse that ever befell Sweden. He got rid of the capable, but mentally unstable and impulsive "Kristian tyran" only to saddle Sweden with his own self-righteousness and equally brutal behavior. It's as though a Stalin drove out a Hitler and replaced him; and managed to set the "governmental ethos" of his country forever after.

(The real comparison to be made, though, is between Gussie and Henry VIII of England: the former lacked the latter's education, majesty and sacral self-conceit as "Supreme Head on Earth" of his national church, and he had none of the latter's marital misfortunes [Gustav was a doting father to his sons, and gave them a good education, while they thought him crude and boorish]; on the other hand, he was avaricious in a way that Henry never approached, and he had a ferociously bad temper, exacerbated for much of his life by constant toothache, that caused him to lash out and strike those who annoyed him, and he is said to have caused the death of one of his three wives by striking her in a quarrel -- he used to prowl around the rooms in his palace that housed the rudimentary Swedish bureaucracy with a cudgel to strike those whom he found to be wasting time or slacking on the job. Both kings, however, wished their will to be taken for law.

Gustav got Sweden turned into a hereditaty monarchy and by dint of exploiting xenophobia and a lot of outright lying -- he always feigned indignant ignorance when Lutheran zealots outraged public opinion in one way or another, and claimed that he was merely confiscating the "excess wealth" of the not very wealthy or powerful Swedish Church, when in fact he pillaged it to a far greater extent than Henry did with the Church of England -- he managed to make himself absolute master of the Church of Sweden, although without ever taking any title like Henry's "Supreme Headship." Even on his deathbed in August 1560, when one of the attendant clerics suggested that he ought to give some thought to making his last confession, he drove the unfortunate priest away with curses.

He left behind four sons ans several daughters: Eric XIV, who succeeded him, was a well-educated and intelligent, but vacillating and mentally unstable, king, who was deposed in 1568 (and poisoned nine years later) after he had a number of nobles killed in a fit of madness; the second son, Magnus, went barking mad and was confined to his castle until his death in 1595; the third son, King Johan (1568-1592) was a remarkably skillful self-educated theologian (and a good politician) who tried for some years to reunite the Church of Sweden with Rome in a way that exasperated both the papacy and the Lutherans; and the fourth son, Duke Karl, later Charles IX (1604-1611), was a man in whom all of his father's flaws and aptitudes reached an astonishing hypertrophy: he managed to undermine the credibility of King Johan's son and successor, King Sigismund (b. 1566, King of Poland 1587 - d., King of Sweden 1592-1602, d. 1632) by playing upon his foreignness and his catholicism, and eventually drove him out -- and, after massacring a large group of nobles who had supported Sigismund, made himself king.

Sweden is what it is today, a bureaucratic state that has perfected a form of "soft totalitarianism" (as one of my Swedish friends put it "DDR lite" [DDR = East Germany]) that can ignore popular opinion or distract it by demagoguery of one sort or another, and by the control of all "sources of ideology," due to the legacy of Gustav Vasa. It is hard to resist the regret that he did not perish with his father at the "Stockholm Bloodbath" in 1520.

[Joel]

Yaknyeti, my Norwegian grandmother made lutefisk for a family meal once. Once. She wasn't a brilliant cook at the best of times, but that was particularly ghastly.

It's the piece of cod that passeth all understanding.

[Ethan Cordray]

>>It's the piece of cod that passeth all understanding.<<

Wow. Just wow. I'm am gonna have to steal that one.

[Tony Esolen]

Bill,

Well, that is what I get for relying on the polished-up accounts of the Swedish Heritage Society here, with their Vasa Hall and Vasa Park. I'm glad I didn't say anything else about him but that he drove out the Dane!

[Stuart Koehl]

We haven't even gone back to the Union of Kalmar yet.

[Alan]

As of January 1, 2000, has not has a state church. Norway seems to be next to remove the state's tie to the Lutheran church.

[Tony Esolen]

Ah yes, Alan, I have heard of it. But I said "church-state" and not "state church". The state is the great god worshiped now. Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus.

[Judy Warner]

Blog star! James, may I have your autograph?

[Kamilla]

Awww, Lutefisk isn't THAT bad if you drown it in butter. . . . .

Yes, Rosemaling is Norwegian. And Undset spent only a little time in Sweden during WWII, before escaping to the US, I think.

And Joel, I'm with Ethan. I'm stealing your line about Lutefisk.

anyone ever hear of ratfisk (pronounced as in "rot")?

Kamilla

[Jenny Islander]

I do think Sweden is gutting itself, BUT--

Speaking as someone who used to scrub toilets for a living and now has to find a clean baby-sized space in unisex bathrooms that have no changing tables . . . is it easier to teach men to sit down or teach them to _aim?_ And would either campaign teach them to _wipe any spills_ or _flush?_

Yes, yes, I know: women want to domesticate men, et cetera. But flinging bodily waste about is not a sign of masculine freedom. It's loathsome and a vector of disease.

The toilets I used to scrub, BTW, were in a church. Ghyaaaagh!

Here's your topic back.

[Mairnéalach]

Piece of cod... codpiece... now, we're back to the original topic.

They've come a long way since the Geats, eh?

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Yes, yes, I know: women want to domesticate men, et cetera. But flinging bodily waste about is not a sign of masculine freedom. It's loathsome and a vector of disease.<<<

My own (admittedly limited) experience is women's bathrooms are far dirtier than men's bathrooms. And most men's room's these days have changing tables.

At Georgetown back in the 70s, after the dorms went co-ed, a number of bathrooms were converted to women's use. The urinals were disconnected, but a tampon dispenser went up in their place.

[Kamilla]

A note of possible interest:

According to Wikipedia, the Wisconsin Employees "Right to know" handbook specifically exempts lutefisk from its list of toxic substances.

Kamilla

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>According to Wikipedia, the Wisconsin Employees "Right to know" handbook specifically exempts lutefisk from its list of toxic substances.<<<

But a lutefisk factory in Minnesota was placed on the EPA Superfund list.

[Bobby Winters]

>>>Yes, yes, I know: women want to domesticate men, et cetera. But flinging bodily waste about is not a sign of masculine freedom. It's loathsome and a vector of disease.<<<

My wife expressed a similar sentiment when I share the topic with her. Urinating standing up is not easy but it one of the axes upon which civilization spins.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>My wife expressed a similar sentiment when I share the topic with her. Urinating standing up is not easy but it one of the axes upon which civilization spins.<<<

My belief is they are just jealous of our independence from porcelain fictures.

[luthien (the adverb addict)]

>>>My belief is they are just jealous of our independence from porcelain fictures.<<<
Nope. We're not jealous, just cleaner.

[DGP]

>>Nope. We're not jealous, just cleaner.<<

On the contrary, we men remain cleaner, because we don't have to make much contact with all those fixtures we've dirtied.

[luthien (the adverb addict)]

Au contraire; we don't dirty the fixtures in the first place, and we *cover* them before making contact with them in case someone else has dirtied them.

[Kamilla]

Regarding the Lutefisk factory in Minnesota - I certainly hope so!

About flinging bodily waste around - not when we're talking the light yellow fluid. Being an ultra-filtrate of blood, it is sterile unless there's a problem in the temporary storage facility. Some Norwegians have been known to pass it over their hands during the rough cold winters. If you will look at the ingredient list of many a hand lotion you will notice an ingredient called "urea".

Finally, in reference to bodily contact with porcelain fixtures - it's called squatting.

Kamilla

[Scott Walker]

My Norwegian grandmother described her countrymen as "Swedes with a conscience." She described Swedes as "Norwegians with a brain." She was conflicted. And sorry, Kamilla, but lutefisk is execrable. I clearly recall being five years old and going outside in a shrieking blizzard in Cut Bank, Montana rather than stay inside and smell the lutefisk. And there is no place this side of Siberia that can surpass Cut Bank, Montana when it comes to shrieking blizzards.

[DGP]

>> it is sterile<<

Good point. I believe the Ma'asai are (in)famous for using it to wash their dishware -- at least, so they are supposed to have done in their rapidly fading nomadic life.

[Kamilla]

Oh, Scott, make no mistake about it - I loathe Lutefisk! Lest you think that is the worst my ancestors could come up with there is also a thing called ratfisk (pronounced "rot") that is worse - it is fermented trout.

No thanks, I'll take cloudberry jam on my lefse and consider the risks of attempting vegeterianism again rather than consume that gelatinous mess again. Once, for the sake of cultural pride, is enough in a lifetim. Now, if we are talking torsk, instead, well, that is another kettle of fish altogether.

Kamilla

[Pam]

Great poem! On the standing up tangent, I don't really get why it is such a big deal. My husband insists our sons sit down when in the house bathroom, in respect to me who has to clean it, and he does the same. We have a garage bathroom I refuse to clean. It has a "gentlemen" sign on the door so it is for them to do as they please. I have heard that about urine being sterile, and I believe it, however, why does it smell so bad if not wiped up soon after it leaves the body? I too once cleaned bathrooms--in a school, no less--and the boys' room was much worse!

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>My husband insists our sons sit down when in the house bathroom, in respect to me who has to clean it, and he does the same. <<<

I'm the only male in our household, and also the one who cleans the bathroom, most of the time. It is my observation that sitting or standing does not seem to be the major discriminator with regard to messiness.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>I have heard that about urine being sterile, and I believe it, however, why does it smell so bad if not wiped up soon after it leaves the body?<<<

Urea and uric acid decomposing on exposure to air (breaking down into ammonia and some other stuff I don't remember), plus certain trace elements in the urine--but no microbes, at least not in healthy people. Blood and bacteria in the urine are sure signs of a kidney infection--a really bad one, too.

[Robert Buechler]

It will be the lutefisk that saves Scandanavia from the Muslim hordes...sure keeps me from those church fall suppers!

Rob Buechler, norwegian by marriage.

[William Tighe]

Btw, a wonderful book to read is *The Early Vasas: A History of Sweden 1523-1611* by Michael Roberts (Cambridge, 1968). Somehow this book came into my hands when I was 17 (already reading History) and I was hooked. It is written with marvellous clarity, tells a fascinating and often bizarre story, and has the most consistently mordant and wry footnotes of any work of history I've ever read.

I am happy to say that within the last decade the "revisionist" historiography of the English Reformation that has swept the field in England, by and large, since the 1970s, has spawned a Swedish offshoot. This has given rise to a great deal of consternation, since left-wing Swedes (of the dominant Socialdemocrat type) and right-wing Swedes (the wing isn't that right, but there are those who speak of the good old days before all of this "nannying" came in in the 1930s) both tend to share an "exceptionalist" view of Swedish history. The "right" might view Gustav Vasa as truly Pater Patriae, and the "left" as a brutal monarch, but both would see him as the father of the Sweden of today (the left) or of things at their best, before the "nanny state" (the right); and so it occasioned consternation when a respected elder Swedish historian with a popular following, Lars-Olof Larsson, published a book two or three years ago, *Gustav Vasa: Landsfader eller Tyrann?* (Gustav Vasa: Father of the Country or Tyrant?) that seemed to make him much more of a villain than a hero; and there have been new books on King Signsmund (traditionally viewed in Swedish history as a cultivated, but weak, king swayed by the Jesuits, a James II whom the Swedes managed to get rid of before he could become their Mary Tudor) which, while not overlooking his indecision and proneness to delay, have not scrupled in some cases to conclude that had he proved successful he probably would have been one of the most highly esteemed, as well as personally pleasant, kings in Swedish history. In a way, this historiography also witnesses, for good as well as ill, of the fading of Swedish national identity, insofar as that was bound up closely with Lutheranism since the 17th Century. The Swedes had always prided themselves how, after an initial resistance to it, the Swedes took completely and thoroughly to their Lutheran Reformation; but now completely secularized Swedish historians are emphasizing how desperately unpopular it was for at least 40 years after the 1520s, how the worship practice in many rural parishes didn't change much till the 1550s and only slowly thereafter, and how dislike of Catholicism was confined to the noble elite (and a few committed Protestants) who had been enriched from the spoils of the church, and in particular of the monasteries, just as in Tudor England; with the conclusion that, if Sigismund had prevailed in the 1598 civil war and had introduced the Counterreformation, Sweden would have reverted quickly, and probably permanently, to Catholicism.

[Yaknyeti]

I can't believe the vile tirade against lutefisk that I'm hearing here!

Well, OK, I can... But I actually like the stuff. A good cook can make it firm, so that it isnh't a complete ooze. It took me a while, but after surviving sushi meals over in Japan, I became convinced that no cooked fish could harm me. Kamilla, if your ratfisk sounds as good as you describe it, I may have to rethink that convinction, though.

[Kamilla]

I've never tried the ratfisk. I only learned about it recently on a Norwegian cooking show.

Tonight my mother informed me that Lutefisk is really quite good if you don't get one of the slimy pieces. Of course, I do happen to know that my grandmother served a gravy boat full of melted butter with the Lutefisk! My tastebuds, if not my waistline, are thankful that my Norwegian grandmother preferred making Krumkake and Fatigmand to Lutefisk in my time.

Kamilla

(and I should warn everyone not to get on my bad side because the only Norwegian my grandmother ever taught me comes from a bit of grafitti she remembered on a stature in Bergen. It roughly tanslates to ". . . .has a boil on his bum". Just don't make me ever want to use it!)

[Judy Warner]

I'm the only male in our household, and also the one who cleans the bathroom,

Stuart, does your wife know you posted this? This is the line women like second-most to hear from a man.

[Mairnéalach]

Bet they don't like what he said next.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Stuart, does your wife know you posted this? This is the line women like second-most to hear from a man.<<<

Working at home, I get to do most of the shopping, the cooking and some of the more onerous cleaning. I do the bathroom mostly because my level of disgust seems to be lower, Living in a household of three women, I found myself ejected from the master bathroom, and now have one of the lesser ones to call my own.

[Kamilla]

Stuart,

You remind me of a former friend in California. He took the lesser bathroom as his own because he was a bit of a clean freak. When I was invited for a visit, he had to clean the master bathroom (her bathroom) because it wasn't clean enough.

Of course, she gave me the best advice I've ever gotten on marriage - marry a man who is cleaner than you.

Kamilla

[James A. Altena]

"Blog star! James, may I have your autograph?"

Thanks for asking, Judy -- but, alas, I'm totally illiterate. That's why I blog on MC. :-)

[Nick]

Some should pout their TMI filters up....Marry a man who pees sitting down. There's no reason to stand in your own bathroom. If you feel the compulsion to stand, buy a house with at least an acre and a tree.

[Judy Warner]

Not that I've made a special investigation of the matter, but I've never heard of a male over age 4 peeing sitting down (except in Sweden), and I would be suspicious of any man who claimed to. Nick, is this something going on around me that I've never picked up on? I mean, women can actually go out and find a man who pees sitting down, if they want one?

[Tony Esolen]

Er, I do hate to mention this, but what the Swedes want to do is to take away urinals from men's rooms or boys' rooms in public areas. A couple of elementary schools have done so, and at least one university. Think of the peevish spite in that. The constant-trickle urinal is about the cleanest receptacle in a public bathroom, since flesh doesn't have to touch it, it's impossible to miss, and there are no splashes. Also, they're compact, so you can have many men use the bathroom at once without lines for waiting -- ever been in an airport?

Hey, it's just easy for the kid or the man to go without half-undressing. It puts him in no contact with anything. All this was dreamed up not as some nightmare of hygiene gone wild, but as a way to keep men from being men -- that is exactly what the women there claim, with pride.

But anyway, we men have Scriptural warrant for standing (cf. 1 Sam. 25:22, 25:34; 1 K. 14:10, 16:11, 21:21; 2 K. 9:8)!

[Judy Warner]

Tony, I so admire the way you stand up for your beliefs.

[Ethan Cordray]

Another benefit of the urinal is that it uses less water. So much for environmentalism...

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Another benefit of the urinal is that it uses less water. So much for environmentalism...<<<

And so much fresher than Cheryl Crow's solution. I guess now we know why Lance Armstrong left.

[Francesca]

>>Er, I do hate to mention this, but what the Swedes want to do is to take away urinals from men's rooms or boys' rooms in public areas. A couple of elementary schools have done so, and at least one university. Think of the peevish spite in that. <<

All Swedes? Or just a fringe group? Is this as bad as the problem we have here in the US of accusing 6-year-olds of sexual harassment? Or the toilet seat up/down debate? I didn't spend much time on this, but I could only find it claimed on the net that *some* feminists at a Swedish university are *campaigning* to get urinals removed (not that they've succeeded) and that one elementary school had removed urinals (the reason was unclear.) For what it's worth, there was some talk about removing the urinals from the boys' bathroom at my own elementary school because the boys were using them for long distance peeing contests and the walls were getting stinky and the floors slippery (eventually this didn't happen because it was thought that the contests would then merely move to the toilets.) This discussion has also come up in Germany (where germ phobia seems to be the primary issue) and Australia, not just Sweden.

Regardless of whether Swedish men stand or sit, Sweden does not seem to be going to hell in a handbasket any time soon. Sweden is a prosperous country with a high quality of life.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Regardless of whether Swedish men stand or sit, Sweden does not seem to be going to hell in a handbasket any time soon. Sweden is a prosperous country with a high quality of life. <<<

Been there lately?

The material quality of life isn't bad but actually doesn't approach that of the United States. If you're ethnically Swedish, that is. If you are an Arab or African immigrant, things aren't quite so nice, despite the vast social welfare network--perhaps material benefits aren't everything?

And even among ordinary Swedes, alcoholism, drug abuse and suicide are rampant. Amazing the number of signs you see exhorting people to get help for their drinking and drug problems, and depression. And, despite the fact that WHO consistently ranks Sweden among the most family-friendly countries in the world, Swedes just don't seem interested in having children. Why is that?

[Francesca]

>>Been there lately?<<

As a matter of fact, yes, and a very pleasant place it is. Personally I preferred Norway because of the beauty of the fjords and we all loved Iceland. On the whole I prefer living in beautiful Colorado for a number of reasons, but all three of these countries would be on my top ten list.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>As a matter of fact, yes, and a very pleasant place it is.<<<

I suppose it is, if you're just touristing. In fact, Sweden has some pretty serious and deep social pathologies, and its progressive (read socialist) ideology is at the root of most of them.

[Nick]

In my family you peed standing up if you were in a public restroom and sitting down if you were at home. I plan on instructing my son in the same behavior. The reasoning behind this was simple: men do miss when peeing into a toilet and the body of water you are peeing into combined with a non-constant stream from you equipment causes splash. This means more cleanup. Women in my households (growing up and now) tended to clean. We were not supposed to cause them extra needless work.

I totally agree with Tony on the hygiene of urinals. However the pro argument goes...um...into the toilet at home.

And Tony, a proof text for urinals? I expect more out of a Catholic :)

[Steve Nicoloso]

Fr. Jape, the (now retired) 500 year-old Jesuit over at the (now retired) New Pantagruel, mentioned in his Continuing Survey of the Farce a while back claimed to have been robotically scolded for attempting to pee standing up in an American Megachurch. He claimed the voice was German... and seeing as any self-respecting 500 Jesuit would be able to tell the difference between German and Swedish, it could be that this "movement" (I missed that pun by only a few inches) could be taking hold, or at least be being pinched between the middle and index fingers, in Germany as well.

[Tony Esolen]

Francesca,

And since when did riches amount to a whole lot, for a Christian? The point of the article, and of the blog, is not that Sweden is going to hell. It was that there isn't any Sweden anymore, not when the elites who govern the country enact policies, against which there is no redress, that inevitably destroy what is left of the culture. And I do mean "what is left," because when a people have abandoned their cultus, that is their faith, their habits of worship, their gods, there isn't any culture to speak of. I love Europe too. It's the finest morgue I've ever seen. I hope it rises from the dead -- but let's be clear, it will have to rise from the dead, because on its own it can do absolutely nothing. We are not yet at that point, though we are fast approaching it.

Rich, yes, modestly so. But the future "Sweden" will belong to Abdullah, not to Lars. Unless Sweden finds its faith again -- and that is the equivalent of saying "unless it rises from the dead."

[coco]

Lift up the seat with your foot, then pee like men have typically done. All that is then required is to remember to drop the seat again: which men have typically not done. I've been in trouble for the latter more than once, but I'm improving...

[coco]

I would add that it doesn't appear useful to comment transatlantically that "[European country X] is going to hell in a handbasket". Apart from the over-generalization, the same symptoms of decay are evident everywhere in the developed countries. Methinks it's more useful to diagnose it at home, which is where charity begins.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>I would add that it doesn't appear useful to comment transatlantically that "[European country X] is going to hell in a handbasket". Apart from the over-generalization, the same symptoms of decay are evident everywhere in the developed countries. Methinks it's more useful to diagnose it at home, which is where charity begins.<<<

In naval architecture, there is a concept called the metacenter, which is the difference between a ship's center of buoyancy and its center of gravity. As long as the center of gravity is below the center of buoyancy, the ship is stable and remains upright. The greater the vertical distance between the two, the more stable the ship is; this measurement is a ship's metacentric height.

Metacentric height is critical to determining a ship's ability to right itself after a rolling motion. A ship with greater metacentric height can roll more to one side or the other, and then come back to an upright position, than one with a lower metacentric height. Flooding can reduce the metacentric height and make the ship more liable to roll over. Yet for all ships, there is a point beyond which the ship's righting moment is insufficient to allow recovery, and the ship capsizes.

Nations are the same way. There is a combination of legal and social conventions that provide it with stability. These might be considered the same as center of gravity and center of buoyancy, so that the some countries have a greater metacentric height than others; i.e., they can withstand greater social, economic and material upheaval than others, and still recover. Social policies can either improve or degrade this national metacenter, rendering the society more or less stable as the case may be.

Yes, all developed nations have been taking on water of late, mainly due to misguided social policies. But some countries had more reserve buoyancy than others, while some had a greater metacentric height from the beginning, and thus when the winds and waves of change buffet them--either through war, mass migration, economic disruption or natural disaster, they can come back upright again. Others have lost so much of their metacentric height that the next little gust or billow will push them right over.

In the great scheme of thiings, the United States by virtue of its size, its history, its social institutions and its legal system, still has a lot of righting moment left to it. Many European countries, however, are already on the brink of capsizing, and the issue is whether their captains and crews can pump out enough compartments to keep them afloat.

I enjoyed this extended metaphor.

[coco]

Well, some members of the SCOTUS have decided to do a little baling. Let's hope the media hacks don't head below deck with more hatchets...

[coco]

In the great scheme of things, the United States by virtue of its size, its history, its social institutions and its legal system, still has a lot of righting moment left to it.

I'm inclined to believe this and regard it as a providential thing. However, I hope this sentiment won't be looked back on from the wreckage as an example of American Whig History.

[The Usage Police]

Baling is for hay. Bailing is for water.

[coco]

And Bawling is for waiter! Cheers.

[Nick]

Has anyone read the article by Father Neuhaus yet in First Things? Its something along the lines of, "The Over Rated Death of Europe". Its sitting in my bathroom waiting to be read (another argument for sitting).

[Ethan Cordray]

Nick, that article is up on the net as well, if you can spare a few minutes from today's Mere Comments posting frenzy. It would require a rather longer commitment of bathroom time than a "Swedish" usually affords.

[Judy Warner]

Thanks, Ethan. Worth reading.

[Francesca]

>>Rich, yes, modestly so. But the future "Sweden" will belong to Abdullah, not to Lars. Unless Sweden finds its faith again -- and that is the equivalent of saying "unless it rises from the dead."<<

This raises some interesting considerations about the relative merits of faith without works versus works without faith. In Galations 5:14, St. Paul reduces the commandments to one: "For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'". It seems that the Swedes are extending the most admirable Christian charity, love, and generosity to their Muslim neigbors. Perhaps this springs from the divine wellspring in every human heart that is present whatever the person's religious inclinations. This is the imprint of God and hence the image of Christ in every soul. This makes us all Christians in some sense (even those who appear to be so in name only.) If the culture and the faith of Sweden are expressed in Christian charity, both seem alive and well.

In stark contrast to the linked article, here is Pope John Paul pleading for a commitment to overcome all racism, xenophobia, and exaggerated nationalism:

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=28429

To quote:
" Being ever more deeply rooted in Christ, Christians must struggle to overcome any tendency to turn in on themselves, and learn to discern in people of other cultures the handiwork of God. Only genuine evangelical love will be strong enough to help communities pass from mere tolerance of others to real respect for their differences. Only Christ's redeeming grace can make us victorious in the daily challenge of turning from egoism to altruism, from fear to openness, from rejection to solidarity.

Understandably, as I urge Catholics to excel in the spirit of solidarity towards newcomers among them, I also invite the immigrants to recognize the duty to honor the countries which receive them and to respect the laws, culture, and traditions of the people who have welcomed them. Only in this way will social harmony prevail.

The path to true acceptance of immigrants in their cultural diversity is actually a difficult one, in some cases a real Way of the Cross. That must not discourage us from pursuing the will of God, who wishes to draw all peoples to himself in Christ, through the instrumentality of his Church, the sacrament of the unity of all mankind (cf. Lumen Gentium, 1). "

Note that JPII also points out the responsibilities of immigrants. While Muslim ghettoes in Europe have their problems and it's fair to point these out, the linked article fails to mention the goodwill and positive social contributions made by many Muslim immigrants living in Sweden.

While Sweden is largely a secular society, it is still permeated by Christian values. In demonstrating these values to Muslim immigrants, ethnic Swedes have many opportunities to influence their Muslim neighbors positively and are less likely than most to alienate or polarize them. As Gaudium et Spes suggest, Christian believers are sometimes the worst advertisements for their cause: "Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion. "

[Francesca]

>>Rich, yes, modestly so. But the future "Sweden" will belong to Abdullah, not to Lars. Unless Sweden finds its faith again -- and that is the equivalent of saying "unless it rises from the dead."<<

This raises some interesting considerations about the relative merits of faith without works versus works without faith. In Galations 5:14, St. Paul reduces the commandments to one: "For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'". It seems that the Swedes are extending the most admirable Christian charity, love, and generosity to their Muslim neigbors. Perhaps this springs from the divine wellspring in every human heart that is present whatever the person's religious inclinations. This is the imprint of God and hence the image of Christ in every soul. This makes us all Christians in some sense (even those who appear to be so in name only.) If the culture and the faith of Sweden are expressed in Christian charity, both seem alive and well.

In stark contrast to the linked article, here is Pope John Paul pleading for a commitment to overcome all racism, xenophobia, and exaggerated nationalism:

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=28429

To quote:
" Being ever more deeply rooted in Christ, Christians must struggle to overcome any tendency to turn in on themselves, and learn to discern in people of other cultures the handiwork of God. Only genuine evangelical love will be strong enough to help communities pass from mere tolerance of others to real respect for their differences. Only Christ's redeeming grace can make us victorious in the daily challenge of turning from egoism to altruism, from fear to openness, from rejection to solidarity.

Understandably, as I urge Catholics to excel in the spirit of solidarity towards newcomers among them, I also invite the immigrants to recognize the duty to honor the countries which receive them and to respect the laws, culture, and traditions of the people who have welcomed them. Only in this way will social harmony prevail.

The path to true acceptance of immigrants in their cultural diversity is actually a difficult one, in some cases a real Way of the Cross. That must not discourage us from pursuing the will of God, who wishes to draw all peoples to himself in Christ, through the instrumentality of his Church, the sacrament of the unity of all mankind (cf. Lumen Gentium, 1). "

Note that JPII also points out the responsibilities of immigrants. While Muslim ghettoes in Europe have their problems and it's fair to point these out, the linked article fails to mention the goodwill and positive social contributions made by many Muslim immigrants living in Sweden.

While Sweden is largely a secular society, it is still permeated by Christian values. In demonstrating these values to Muslim immigrants, ethnic Swedes have many opportunities to influence their Muslim neighbors positively and are less likely than most to alienate or polarize them. As Gaudium et Spes suggest, Christian believers are sometimes the worst advertisements for their cause: "Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion. "

[Gene Godbold]

Francesa,
I don't think you're paying attention: Do you honestly think that the folks governing Sweden are doing what they do with reference to Jesus--or even his example? And yet, they reject his Gospel in so many other ways. I'm afraid that you're deluding yourself.

[Nick]

Gene,

I noted the same thing. She quotes JPII but effectively glosses the quote:
"Only Christ's redeeming grace can make us victorious in the daily challenge of turning from egoism to altruism, from fear to openness, from rejection to solidarity."

The Swedish government is not proposing this.

[GL]

In Galations 5:14, St. Paul reduces the commandments to one: "For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'". It seems that the Swedes are extending the most admirable Christian charity, love, and generosity to their Muslim neigbors.

Do you take this to mean that the Swedes must sacrifice their culture and their faith (for those who still have faith) in order to fulfill Paul's teaching? Would it not be a better act of love to attempt to integrate the Muslims immigrants into the Swedish culture and country and evangelize them into the Christian faith? If you believe in the teaching of our Lord that He is the only way to the Father, love would demand that you tell that to your neighbors who are not Christians. Surrendering one's culture and faith to immigrants is not love, it is cowardice or, worse, indifference.

[Francesca]

>>I don't think you're paying attention: Do you honestly think that the folks governing Sweden are doing what they do with reference to Jesus--or even his example? And yet, they reject his Gospel in so many other ways. I'm afraid that you're deluding yourself.<<

Yes, they do seem to be following His example, whether consciously or not, and they're certainly in line with aspects of Catholic teachings on immigration -- more so than many Catholics, apparently. What would be a better response? Locking down the borders? "Bombing them back to the Stone Age"?

[Francesca]

>>She quotes JPII but effectively glosses the quote:
"Only Christ's redeeming grace can make us victorious in the daily challenge of turning from egoism to altruism, from fear to openness, from rejection to solidarity."<<

We are all share in redeeming grace because Christ died for all of us -- even for Muslims and atheists. Who is to say Christ's redeeming grace is not present in these generous-spirited Swedes who open their homes and their country?

As Benedict XVI says,"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith."

[Gene Godbold]

Okay, so they're accidentally in line with Catholic social teaching on this one issue. They're way, way out of line on a host of others and hostile to the idea of divine revelation in general. What do you conclude from this?

[Gene Godbold]

What if Jesus and Benedict disagree on this?

[David Gray]

>What if Jesus and Benedict disagree on this?

I think Benedict loses, fine fellow that he is...

[Tony Esolen]

Living on the accumulated capital of centuries of Christian civilization, that is what Sweden is doing. All human actions, all but the most saintly and diabolic, are tangled masses of grace and selfishness, light and darkness. Therefore it behooves us to be careful not to judge the state of any oarticular man's soul. But prudence requires us at the same time, for love of God and love of neighbor, to judge the right and the wrong and exhort ourselves and others to act accordingly.

So let me be clear: I am not saying that Swedes are all going to hell. I have no idea about the state of the soul of any individual Lars or Nils. My point was, and it remains, that there will soon be no Sweden. That is not a theological point; it is an anthropological point, given support by theology, but independent from it. I mean by it that any people, pagan or Christian, that no longer reveres its own traditions, that no longer aspires to the ideals (however debased or shot through with falsehood these may be) presented to them by their gods, and that welcomes into its midst a people who reject all that the natives once stood for and who seek instead to replace it with their own nation, will soon cease to exist. The intellectual elites in Sweden insist that they are "multicultural," and they mean by it -- they seem to be uncommonly candid -- that Sweden possesses no culture at all. Teach that to your students and in one generation you will have what you originally affirmed, falsely.

If we Christians genuinely believe that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, and if we believe that the institutions of freedom and charity based upon the Christian scriptures really do offer hope to the peoples of the world, then for the sake of the strangers if for nothing else we would wish to usher them into OUR society. But there are the elites, contemptuous of commoners and hicks who still cherish a memory of the Christian Sweden that was. Those elites in their pride (I am speaking generally, not of individuals) will gloss over with borrowed Christian terms the destruction they seek, that of the last trace of genuine Christianity among the people -- to reduce Christianity to a "lifestyle," a harmless choice in decor, a hobby for quirky people on Sunday. To accomplish this they will invite the Moslems into their midst, thinking that a sauna and a Saab will bring them around to their secular ways. I have more respect for Moslems than to believe that that will be the rule. As I said, tell it to Abdullah.

[James A. Altena]

Dear Stuart,

I also enjoyed your extended metaphor -- most apt.

What's a meta for, anyway?

[Mairnéalach]

Stuart, this professional mariner applauds your extended metaphor. Sound, shipshape and Bristol-fashion on all points.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>What's a meta for, anyway?<<<

We're all meta-centered today, aren't we?

[Stuart Koehl]

>>> In demonstrating these values to Muslim immigrants, ethnic Swedes have many opportunities to influence their Muslim neighbors positively and are less likely than most to alienate or polarize them.<<<

Except that it hasn't worked out that way, through the inexorable law of unintended consequences. Muslims in Sweden are among the most alienated and militant in Europe, and their enclaves make parts of several Swedish cities into effective "no go zones", not only for Swedish citizens, but for the Swedish police as well.

The situation is so bad that, as I mentioned before, my uncle, who is a professor of urban planning at University of Cinncinnati, was called in by the Swedish government to investigate the situation and make recommendations to fix it. His verbal report to me on his return from a three month stay was quite hair raising. I noticed a lot of it myself, even though I have seldom stayed more than a week at a time.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Stuart, this professional mariner applauds your extended metaphor. Sound, shipshape and Bristol-fashion on all points.<<<

High praise from a sailor. Thank's, Captain.

[Francesca]

>>What if Jesus and Benedict disagree on this?<<

If you're not Catholic, then you don't have a problem. If you are, this is one of those situations where one has to look to one's own conscience for an answer.

[Francesca]

>>My point was, and it remains, that there will soon be no Sweden ... that welcomes into its midst a people who reject all that the natives once stood for and who seek instead to replace it with their own nation, will soon cease to exist. <<

Well, time will tell. I find the suggestion that Muslims reject all that the Swedes once stood for, along with the xenophobic anti-Muslim diatribe in the linked article (which portrayed Muslims as generally undesirable and Swedes, who happen to be the world's largest producers of neo-Nazi websites, as catatonic in their passivity) to be overly simplistic. Islam is not a homogenous religion and has no central authority. There is tremendous diversity of thought within Islam and many Muslims are moderate, peaceful, and an asset to their communities.

>>The intellectual elites in Sweden insist that they are "multicultural," and they mean by it -- they seem to be uncommonly candid -- that Sweden possesses no culture at all. <<

Who are these "elites"? Apparently they include JP II. It seems to me the *antithesis* of elitism to be accepting of other cultures. The penultimate elitism would be something like living in a white supremacist group devoted to keeping the race pure. The ultimate cultural elitism is genocide. Multiculturalism is a reality. We can't abandon or exterminate people of other cultures. We can't force them to conform to our beliefs.

>>Those elites in their pride (I am speaking generally, not of individuals) will gloss over with borrowed Christian terms the destruction they seek, that of the last trace of genuine Christianity among the people -- to reduce Christianity to a "lifestyle," a harmless choice in decor, a hobby for quirky people on Sunday. <<

You're imputing some rather extreme views to these "elites." What with the world full of elites, Abdullahs, men who sit, feminists obsessed with outlawing urinals, and all these people running around trying to overcome xenophobia and bent on practising the advice of our previous pope, why confine your anxiety to Sweden?

[DGP]

>>What if Jesus and Benedict disagree on this?<<

Like any good one-minute manager, Benedict's boss would never contradict him in public. If he disagreed, he'd probably just approach Benedict privately. Or fire him.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Or fire him.<<<

Oooo. That's bad. No golden parachute for that job.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>catatonic in their passivity<<<

Not catatonic, probably just drunk or stoned--or both.

[DGP]

>>Oooo. That's bad. No golden parachute for that job.<<

It reminds me of my intro to ecclesiology in seminary:

Student: What if there were ever an heretical Pope? What could the Church do about it?

Prof: The traditional solution is poison.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Prof: The traditional solution is poison.<<<

Plan B: Strangulation.

Essentially, you leave the job feet first.

[DGP]

>>Essentially, you leave the job feet first.<<

Yes, just like husbands and African heads of state.

[Staffan]

Fjordman, the Norwegian whose article in the Brussels Journal started all this, sees everything in black. He cannot explain why all these bad things have happened, and he has no real recipe for a better Sweden. I am not saying that his facts are wrong, but he is very very one-sided.

We have had an established church in Sweden -- until 1860, "apostasy" was a punishable crime -- but it has been taken over by our rulers (the socialists and their friends). Of all Swedes, 80% are members of the church, 3% go to church on Sunday. Today Swedes believe, not in God, but in "Man". So we expect no help, no strength from the Almighty.

In olden times, the family, the "clan", would have been a source of protection. But today, the family has been socialized. From the tender age of 18 months, children are taken care of by the "community", the state. From early morning to late afternoon. So the family is not something to rely on.

Today our protection lies in adjusting to the norm. Being like ordinary folks. Thinking as others. And above all, never expressing any inappropriate thoughts. (Even if we tried, no serious paper would publish them.)

Fjordman is saying that the immigrants are the problem in Sweden. As a Catholic, I would say the immigrants I meet are better than most Swedes. No -- we natives are the problem: No other god than "Man", not much of a family, no morals in the old sense, no real hope for something better.

(And yet, some of us – many of us – are still living fairly good lives. Honest, moral lives. With family and relatives and friends. As believing Christians, even... )

[Ethan Cordray]

And long may you endure, Staffan, after your princes have passed into dust.

[Tony Esolen]

Just curious, Staffan -- did you like the "song"?

I too lament what has happened in Sweden, and what is happening (though to a lesser degree, and with considerable countervailing forces) in my own ancestral Italy. I think that the intellectual elites in both countries are lying when they say that they fear religion because it is divisive. They fear religion because it unites, and a united people are hard to subjugate.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Today our protection lies in adjusting to the norm. Being like ordinary folks. Thinking as others. And above all, never expressing any inappropriate thoughts. (Even if we tried, no serious paper would publish them.)<<<

So apostacy is still a crime, isn't it? Only the beliefs have changed.

[Mike]

Many of the comments here are absolutely insane. Christians thinking it's "Christian" to flood your homeland with foreigners of another religion and culture and ethnicity? What are you thinking? The curses of Duet 28 clearly explain this is punishment/a curse. The whole Old Testament is about the Israelits in search of their ethnic homeland ... coming into their promiseland and then keeping it. God repeatedly told them to kick the foreigners out and forced the Israelites to actually divorce their foreign wifes. And get this, when the Israelites finally took hold of their homeland (Israel) what did God tell them to do? He commanded the 12 tribes of Israel to live in separate sections! In the New Testament, Jesus made it clear that He was sent first to take care of the Jews and then later the other ethnic/racial groups would have their turn at hearing the Gospel. This is whole idea of freely surrendering your ethnic homeland that God called you to, to foreigners is just as idiotic as bestiality or homosexuality. Jesus said we are to GO INTO THE WORLD and preach the Gospel. Not flood your homeland with foreigners whom God didn't assign there.