Nothing More Than Feelings

     Never will human beings lie so glibly, or deceive themselves so easily, as when they are talking about their feelings.  The reasons aren't hard to find.  If I say to my wife, "Yes, I painted the picnic table," I know that she can walk out to the backyard and check.  But there is no checking someone else's feelings.  You can only see them in action, and, given the vagaries of feeling and the fact that we sometimes fail to act on them -- rather, we sometimes act against them -- there is no easy way to tell whether and to what extent someone is lying about them.  Nor are our own feelings easy to read.  I'd go so far as to say that for people who do not practice a regular examination of conscience (of one sort or another; I'm not talking about the Catholic preparation for the sacrament of penance here), their feelings can be deeply mysterious to them, depending upon their personalities.  Sometimes they can be positively opaque.  Many are the parents, for example, who say they feel love for their children, and who have persuaded themselves that they do feel that love, who nevertheless do all in their power to crush them.  I've seen a few examples of that.

     Besides, feelings come and go; they're crucial to the constitution of a virtuous person, as Plato teaches us in the Phaedrus, but they cannot be relied upon to lead.  They are powerful assisters of reason -- they aspire to reason, you might say, but they are not rational in themselves.  In man they are stirred or shaken not only by tsunamis, but by perfect trifles.  The Cardinals win, and I can hear birdsong in a driving rain.  I get stuck for a bad lunch at a high price, and I'm kicking the dog when I get home.  They also remain quite unruffled when we know we should be feeling something.  Jonathan Swift has the true feelings of his own friends pegged, when he writes Verses on the Death of Dr. Swift -- imagining their reactions after he dies.  His female friends (of whom he had many -- Swift was an excellent dinner companion) intersperse their expressions of dismay with chat during a game of loo.  I'm quoting from memory, but the lines go on after this fashion:

     The ladies moan in doleful dumps:
    "The Dean is dead -- and what is trumps?"

Dr. Johnson too pinned his friend Boswell on the same point: people talk about their feelings as a way of getting on in society, the kind of light hypocrisy that lubricates easy and trivial conversation.  In this sense we can hardly get on without a little bit of it.  Says the Doctor (again I'm quoting from memory): "You may say to a man, 'Sir, I am sorry that you had such bad weather on your trip, and were so much wet.'  You don't care tuppence about the weather.  You may say, 'Sir, I am your most obedient servant.'  You are not his most obedient servant."  He concludes that we may talk this way, but that at all costs we must avoid taking the talk seriously.  We may not think it.

     What happens when talk about feelings predominates in popular piety and the liturgy?  I'm sure you'll have plenty to say about this.  I'd like to make a few observations:

     1. People lose the sense of a sharp difference between that talk and the secrets of the heart, that only God knows.  The Pharisee who made his "confession" at the Temple, while the publican languished in the back, no doubt felt quite elated by the contrast.  He did not know the pride of his own heart.  He did not understand his dire need for conversion.  It may be the same with us when we sing "hymns" that declare that we are happy, rather than giving us theological and historical cause to be happy.  The difference is between a hymn of joy because the Lord is risen, and a hymn about our supposed joy, because, don't you know, something really important happened two thousand years ago, and I might tell you about it after I get done singing about how joyful I am.

     2. People are compelled to raise the necessary hypocrisy of small talk to a liturgical act.  Even the best of these my-feeling hymns can at best be occasional, extra-liturgical outbursts -- Granny Clampett stomping left and right and a-singing, "I've got that joy joy joy joy down in my heart!"  But if everybody must sing "I am happy, oh so happy," then that will turn most of the congregation into liars, scoff-graces, if I may coin the term.  The plain fact is that at any moment in a church, most of the people are not especially happy.  They may be moderately contented, and that may or may not be a good thing, depending on what they are contented about.  Some may be suffering, and that may be a wellspring of devotion for them, if they are suffering with Christ; but some may be suffering the lacerations of their sins.  Others may be trekking through the dry land, the waste regions without water -- Mother Teresa knew of these, and Sister Therese of the Child Jesus, racked with agony as she lay dying of consumption, knew of the terrors of feeling utterly abandoned.  We have cause to be joyful, and should sing of that cause: I am certain that John of the Cross, even undergoing the dark night of the soul, sang exuberantly of the resurrection of Christ.  But the truest feelings are deep and powerful things, of which we know little enough, and about which we should not speak without some trepidation.

     3. Wary strangers who enter the church are liable to see, instead of devotions that might stir deep feeling, the putting-on of an act, a profession of deep feeling.  Now there are two possibilities that enter his mind, neither of them good.  The first is that the people are deceiving others or themselves; they do not really feel what they profess.  So he leaves, half disappointed, half pleased that he can look with some contempt upon people that he would prefer not to have anything to do with.  The other possibility is that their professions of feeling seem genuine.  But he himself has no such feeling.  He can hardly imagine having it.  The social critic Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, in The Timeless Christian, notes shrewdly that as people differ in their physical prowess, intelligence, originality, and temperament, so too they differ in their capacity for the "spiritual" response, for mystic ravishment, or for devotion broadly conceived.  Such people learn that church is not for them, in the same way that most lefties learn that golf courses are not for them, or most men learn that quilting is not for them.

     4. Worst of all, the sentimentality that almost inevitably ensues obstructs genuine feeling.  Talk long enough and sincerely enough about feelings that you do not feel, and eventually you will cease to be able to feel deeply, whether or not you have the words to express it.  That's because, as a matter of social intercourse again, we place a censor upon our admitted feelings.  We know that we are supposed to feel sad when we hear that an acquaintance has died.  We say we feel sad.  We may have to say it, as Johnson suggests.  But if we dress that supposed sadness up in finery and parade it all the time -- if we breathe a false life into the non-feeling -- then we may no longer be fit to distinguish the genuine from the bogus.

     Take for example these excerpts from a couple of famous hymns. One is a hymn that expresses a deep feeling -- a gentle love, but one that is occasioned by a specific cause.  The words are pregnant with powerful scriptural and theological allusions ("Tarry with us, Lord," "Can God spread a table in the wilderness?", "He broke the bread") that lift the feeling from the personal and adventitious to the universal:

     Be known to us in breaking bread,
     But do not then depart:
     Savior, abide with us and spread
     Thy table in our heart.

Then this, a model for the contemporary hymn in praise of our feelings of praise:

     And he walks with me and he talks with me,
     And he tells me I am his own.

Oh, He does, does He?  You are one of those rarest of mystics, then?  If you were, and you did feel such ravishment of love, would you sing about it so blithely?

Comments

[James A. Altena]

Absolutely magnificent, Tony.

One might also add that the appeal to feelings is the great egalitarian leveller of modern epistemological, moral, and aesthetic relativism and all of its resulting evils. Precisely because personal feelings are completely subjective, and not subject to any obejctive standard of evaluation, no one can say that one person's feelings or tastes are better or worse than another's. And so if the way one *feels* rather than *thinks* about an issue is made the basis for judgment, then no one can assert someone else's position to be wrong -- except, of course, if one indeed dares to call into question the rightness of those feelings and the ideas to which they lead.

Some 175 years ago, the poet Heinrich Heine was asked why men of his era had so declined in heroism and virtue in comparison to the great figures of ancient times. He replied (I paraphrase from memory), "Then men had convictions. Now they only have sentiments."

[Beth]

All the way through this excellent essay, I kept thinking "college chapel!" I cannot bear to attend most of the time now, just my occasional obligatory nod to the fact that the dean pays attention. Part of this is the awful nature of student-led worship (without adult oversight of any sort). Part of it is seeing so many of my students so involved in their emotions in the superficial, silly songs -- and then coming to my classes late, unprepared, unengaged. And just try suggesting that their actions and attitudes in class demonstrate their walk with the Lord -- oh, no, no sireee, I love Jesus, I go to chapel every day and lift my hands and cry for love of Jesus, how dare you suggest I don't love Jesus . . .

People who are married learn quickly, if they are going to make it, that love is not about feelings, but actions, and their actions may or may not lead to certain feelings but will at least give them a place to take a stand for righteousness.

[Ethan Cordray]

Oh, my, I had forgotten how much I hate that old hymn...old? 1912, it seems. Another example of my rule of thumb: no hymns written after 1900 are any good.

I really want to be proven wrong. Would someone like to try for a list of the 10 best hymns written since 1900? Or 5 best, if the former is too hard?

[Eric]

James,

Your reference to Heinrich Heine reminded me of a quote of his that is one of my favorites:

"In the middle ages they had convictions, where we moderns today have only opinions, and it takes more than opinions to build a gothic cathedral."

[Matthias]

Thank you for a very intriguing piece. I had never thought about it before, but now that I do, I think the Byzantine liturgy is entirely lacking in words about feelings. At least, sitting here, I can't think of a single word about how we (or I) feel that occurs in the Divine Liturgy or any other liturgical service I've been to. And I have never so consistently looked forward to going to worship as I have since I went east.

Okay, a possible exception: some of the Psalms do speak of feeling desolate. But those are usually chanted by a Reader and there is no suggestion that *I* am supposed to be feeling that way at that moment.

[Gintas]

And he walks with me and he talks with me,
And he tells me I am his own.

Way to ruin a heretofore perfectly nice day! I now have a doubleplusbad feeling.

[Judy Warner]

The Episcopal Church's 1941 hymnal, which we use in the Anglican Catholic Church (and is long gone from the Episcopal Church) is remarkably free of feelings. I'm taking up your challenge, Ethan, at least a little bit, and looking through the hymnal for ones written after 1900, of which there are very few. Here's a Passiontide hymn from 1906, by Gabriel Gillett (music from 1714):

It is finished! Christ hath known
All the life of men wayfaring;
Human joys and sorrows sharing,
Making human needs his own.
Lord in us thy life renewing,
Lead us where thy feet have trod,
Till, the way of truth pursuing,
Human souls find rest in God.

It is finished! Christ is slain,
On the altar of creation,
Off'ring for a world's salvation
Sacrifice of love and pain.
Lord, thy love through pain revealing,
Purge our passions, scourge our vice,
Till, upon the tree of healing,
Self is slain in sacrifice.

And one by Percy Dearmer from 1933 for St. Michael and All Angels, sung to a traditional Irish melody:

Angels and ministers, spirits of grace,
Friends of the children, beholding God's face,
Moving like thought to us through the beyond,
Molded in beauty, and free from our bond!

Messengers clad in the swiftness of light,
Subtle as flame and creative in might,
Helmed with the truth and with charity shod,
Wielding the wind of the purpose of God!

Earth's myriad creatures live after their kind,
Dumb, in the life of the body confined;
You are pure spirit, but we here below,
Linked in both orders, are tossed to and fro.

You do God's bidding, unshaken and strong;
We are distraught 'twixt the right and the wrong;
Yet would we soar as the bird from the mesh,
Freed from the weakness and wonder of flesh.

We too shall join you as comrades in grace,
Here but a little below you in place;
Then, when we climb from our lowness in worth,
We too shall herald good will upon earth.

[Bill R]

What, Judy, you think that compares with:

"I got the love of Jesus down in my heart, down in heart, down in my heart...(etc., ad naseum)"

[Josiah A. Roelfsema]

Ethan,

1. Because He Lives by Bill Gaither (1971)

2. Victory in Jesus by E.M. Bartlett (1939)

3. Wonderful Grace of Jesus by Haldor Lillenas (1918)

4. How Great Thou Art by Stuart Hine (1953)

5. The Power of the Cross by Keith Getty (2005)

The lyrics for 1-4 can be found here. Turn off your speakers though, the midi versions are not very good.

Lyrics for #5 are here.

But, I must say, your challenge is significant. It took me nearly 15 minutes just to put together these five. I will not make a case for them being the top five since 1900; however, they are hymns that I find both meaningful and grounded. And yes, a couple of them do mention feelings but in a way I think appropriate.

Judy, I appreciate the hymn from Percy Dearmer. I had never heard of it. I hope the music matches the lyrics in quality.

[Michael]

Bill (and Dr. Esolen)--

It has long been my contention (or so long as I am capable of having cogent contentions, e.g., since I was 13 and actually started thinking about the music I was singing along with, which is a short time, I suppose) that the vast majority of modern "worship" music--or at least "worship" in that vague modern sense of "you" without ever mentioning "God"--is theologically and lyrically vapid. Now, of course there are notable exceptions to this rule, but the exceptions do not measure against the the hymns of old at all.

Once or twice a year, during our "contemporary" services, our church does what it refers to as "ancient rites," a hipster-twentysomethingish way of saying "liturgical worship," following the pattern of the church ancient through most of the church modern. I have suggested, now that I have a say in such things, that during these times of liturgical worship, that we use modernized hymns instead of contemporary lyrics. For example, Christ Tomlin's adaptation of "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross," which is essentially the hymn with an energized chorus (Oh the wonderful cross / oh the wonderful cross / bids me come and die / and find that I may truely live / Oh the wonderful cross / oh the wonderful cross / All who gather here/ by grace draw near and bless Your name) or David Crowder's arrangement of
"All Creatures of Our God and King." The "Christian band"--whatever that means--Jars of Clay released an album a few years ago called Redemption Songs which was made up of the lyrics of old hymns--no original lyrical content--set and arranged to modern melodies and music, and is a great resource to that end.

But I've digressed way too much. I had started typing this in response to both Dr. Esolen and Bill quoting "I've got the joy/love/some-other-vague-emotional-one-syllable-word down in my heart." Now, it is one thing to talk dimly of emotion, and it is quite another to sing of a deeper spiritual reality. Now, I have detested the quoted song for some time, but I don't think it's a lie to sing it. Are we to think that the joy of Christ is some transient, palpable emotion like mere happiness, or is it a gift of the Spirit that persists in the heart of the believer, giving us strength regardless of our present emotional sentiment? Even in mourning, the hope of life eternal maintains the joy of grace, does it not? It is quite a different thing to sing "Everybody's singing now / 'Cause we're so happy"--because happy is an emotionally vapid word.

[David Mills]

Beth's comment reminded me of something we published five years ago: Bump and Grind for Jesus by Gary Weaver. It is grimly amusing.

[PAUL KURITZ]

Perhaps Jesus judges us by the condition of our heart rather than by the condition of our hymns because only He knows the condition of our hearts.

[Sawyer]

Bill R,
You do have to admit (maybe not) that the song you quoted is a tad bit better then "Shine Jesus, Shine".

[Josiah A. Roelfsema]

<<

And he walks with me and he talks with me,
And he tells me I am his own.

Oh, He does, does He? You are one of those rarest of mystics, then? If you were, and you did feel such ravishment of love, would you sing about it so blithely?>>>

Dr. Esolen,
Are you saying that the problem with this particular hymn is "forcing" the feeling on people for whom the words may not be true? Can those for whom the words are true still sing it appropriately? I am not claiming to be one, but only trying to understand what to think.

[Michael]

Mr. Kuritz,

I do believe that this was Dr. Esolen's contention, that even an individual man cannot fathom the depths of his own heart. Accordingly, it should not be our habit to sing with intentional obfuscation regarding the emotional reality of our everlasting souls. In doing so, we are either a) lying or b) speaking the truth without knowing it. Either way, this leads to a lack of proper introspection and callusing of the senses, disconnecting words from their relevant meanings and emotions to nothing more than ephemeral highs.

[Judy Warner]

Josiah, here is the tune; it is called Slane.

[PAUL KURITZ]

I am be wrong, but I understand that God is the God of the senses as well as the God of the intellect. People praise Him with what little they have. Our attitude toward others' offerings tells as much about our hearts as the songs we choose to sing.

[Judy Warner]

In fact, you can hear all the Anglican hymns and see the lyrics at the hymnal.oremus.org website.

[Michael]

Mr. Kuritz,

And no one is denying this. Let the prophets prophesy, let the singers sing, let the dancers dance, let the poets read. But when we praise Him with what little we have, we should not do it blindly. We should not approach the throne of Grace cheaply and ignorantly. Forget the songs. Even in the liturgy of the Mass (and in the Lutheran Church, the Communion setting for the Divine Service), there is a time for self-examination and confession so that we may be clear with our own feelings and thoughts in the setting. Why should this not also be applied to song?

[Ethan Cordray]

A pretty good list, Mr. Roelfsma. "How Great Thou Art" is a personal favorite. I always figured, and this is a complement, that it was a lot older than that. Judy, I really like that first hymn you cite. As for the second...while it's nice to consider angels, I think I'll keep "Be Thou My Vision" as my preferred lyrics to that tune. :-)

But while I may not equally like the lyrical quality of all the hymns so far mentioned, they are all notably free of trite sentimentality.

[Beth]

"I may be wrong, but I understand that God is the God of the senses as well as the God of the intellect. People praise Him with what little they have. Our attitude toward others' offerings tells as much about our hearts as the songs we choose to sing."

I don't believe that Tony is at all suggesting that emotions are not part of being human or worshiping God. He is, however, suggesting that a right ordering of our emotions is called for, and that we should not presume to compel each other to "feel" anything in particular or to say, even in hymns we sing, that which is not true or cannot be known.

You might want to read the article that David Mills linked to. The following snippet suggests why it may not be a bad thing to criticize what is done in the name of "praising and worshiping God," even if those who are doing the praising that we object to are quite sincere in their intent:

"But aren’t good intentions enough? Is it not sufficient that this group of students, and their sponsors, sincerely intended their actions to bring praise and honor to God, just as much as, say, J. S. Bach intended his music to glorify God?

"I am quite willing to grant the good intentions, but to insist that good intentions are enough seems too close to one or another ancient and modern heresy. Saying that it is my own private thoughts and intentions that determine the character of my Christian life at least flirts with Gnostic thinking and other “special,” non-catholic revelations."

St. Therese of the Child Jesus (Therese of Liseux) -- now there is someone I can connect with. I wish I could feel like Granny Clampett more often, but apparently I'm just not made that way -- which means that 9/10 of the music I am subjected to at any worship service are impossible to sing.

[Beth]

That article David posted also made me intensely grateful that dance is still banned on our campus, though I'm sure the day is near when that will end. I may have to retire at that point. (No, I'm not opposed to all dance, just most of what passes for dance amongst my students and in the culture at large.)

[Bobby Winters]

Lord of the Dance, 1963

words by Sydney Carter, music traditional

I danced in the morning when the world was begun
I danced in the Moon & the Stars & the Sun
I came down from Heaven & I danced on Earth
At Bethlehem I had my birth:

Dance then, wherever you may be
I am the Lord of the Dance, said He!
And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be
And I'll lead you all in the Dance, said He!
(...lead you all in the Dance, said He!)

I danced for the scribe & the pharisee
But they would not dance & they wouldn't follow me
I danced for fishermen, for James & John
They came with me & the Dance went on:

I danced on the Sabbath & I cured the lame
The holy people said it was a shame!
They whipped & they stripped & they hung me high
And they left me there on a cross to die!

I danced on a Friday when the sky turned black
It's hard to dance with the devil on your back
They buried my body & they thought I'd gone
But I am the Dance & I still go on!

They cut me down and I leapt up high
I am the Life that'll never, never die!
I'll live in you if you'll live in Me -
I am the Lord of the Dance, said He!

[James A. Altena]

Dear Eric,

I presume you found the quote I was paraphrasing from memory. Or perhaps Heine expressed the same thought in more than one vein. Thanks!

[James Kabala]

Mr. Winters - I hope you meant that as an example of a bad hymn, not a good one. I regard that as one of the worst hymns ever written (lyrically, that is; as theologically messed-up as the Shakers were, they did write good melodies).

[Stuart Koehl]

I can't compete, because I'm stuck with such stuff as

O Only-begotten Son and Word of God,
Who being immortal,
Deigned for our salvation
To become incarnate of the Holy Theotokos
And ever-virgin Mary,
And became man without change.
You were also crucified for us,
O Christ our God,
And by death have trampled death,
Being one of the Holy Trnity,
Glorified with the Father,
And the Holy Spirit,
Save us!

Not to mention:

May our lips be filled
With your praise, O Lord,
So that we may sing of your glory.
For you have deemed us worthy to partake
Of your holy, divine immortal
And life-creating mysteries.
Keep us in your sanctification,
So that throughout the day,
We may mediate upon your truth.
Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.

Not as catchy as What a Friend We Have in Jesus, I know. But it does grow on you.

[Bobby Winters]

James,

I am sorry, we disagree. I like this hymn very much.

Bobby

[PAUL KURITZ]

"But when we praise Him with what little we have, we should not do it blindly. We should not approach the throne of Grace cheaply and ignorantly."

I don't know of anyone who deliberately chooses to praise God blindly, cheaply, and ignorantly. But I do know of people who call others' praise "blind, cheap, and ignorant."

Do we pray "Thank God my praises are not like other peoples'" or "God have mercy on a singer like me"?

As I read the psalms I have difficulty believing the authors were primarily concerned with the right ordering of their emotions as they cried out to God.
And I have difficulty believing that God hears the "rightly ordered" praises first.

[Bobby Winters]

Another favorite:

Psalm 137
1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.

2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,

3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"

4 How can we sing the songs of the LORD
while in a foreign land?

5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill .

6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.

7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.<<<

A special favorite of ours during Lent.

[Judy Warner]

Bobby, That hymn is the keynote song in the Christmas Revels, a very enjoyable celebration of the winter holiday season, with a lot of pagan elements and an emphasis on the solstice as well as Christmas. It's performed all over the country in cities with large liberal/pagan populations, such as Washington DC and Boston. (And people like my family, who attended every year when our daughter was young for the excellent music, dance and pageantry.) Lord of the Dance is for some reason perfectly acceptable to folk singers and others who would shrivel up at the sound of a normal hymn. I guess because it never once mentions the name of Jesus.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Do we pray "Thank God my praises are not like other peoples'" or "God have mercy on a singer like me"?<<<

Actually, I pray, "Thank you, Lord, for not making me tone deaf like the woman standing behind me who is screeching in my ear in a key not found in nature". Also, "Thank you, Lord, for giving me the good sense not to sing at the top of my lungs when I don't know the song". And, when I am feeling gracious towards us, I pray for them "Please, Lord, give them a bucket in which they can carry that tune".

Amen.

[Wonders for Oyarsa]

Bobby,

I must say I'm not a fan of that one either. I cringe in calling Christ "The Lord of the Dance". Images of Michael Flatley and all...

I'm a rather big fan of this one though:

In Christ Alone

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
‘Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin’s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Bobby, That hymn is the keynote song in the Christmas Revels, a very enjoyable celebration of the winter holiday season, with a lot of pagan elements and an emphasis on the solstice as well as Christmas. It's performed all over the country in cities with large liberal/pagan populations, such as Washington DC and Boston. (And people like my family, who attended every year when our daughter was young for the excellent music, dance and pageantry.) Lord of the Dance is for some reason perfectly acceptable to folk singers and others who would shrivel up at the sound of a normal hymn. I guess because it never once mentions the name of Jesus.<<<

Only go to the Revels now, if the theme is something we really like, like Scotland, Russia and Scandinavia, or the Romany.

[Michael]

>>I don't know of anyone who deliberately chooses to praise God blindly, cheaply, and ignorantly. But I do know of people who call others' praise "blind, cheap, and ignorant."<<

Nor do I, but the trend in mainstream American churches--"evangelicals" with both capital and little "E"--is to do so without realizing it. It is the curse of modern music to sing along without actually thinking about the words, the same absentmindedness one finds while driving in joining in with whatever's playing on the radio. If one can examine himself and find a pure, good reason and understanding of a contemporary song like "I've got the joy/love/(insert-vague-emotion) down in my heart...," let him sing it with all the fervor that our Lord God merits. I pointed out a thelogical justification for this song that Bill R and Dr. Esolen derided--admitting that I find it trite, but that it has value. That said, I don't think anyone really tries to think about what their singing. It is a milk diet of lyrical theology, and we should consider this harmful just as much as we do a milk diet of scriptural theology.

>>Do we pray "Thank God my praises are not like other peoples'" or "God have mercy on a singer like me"?<<

How wonderfully tounge-in-cheek! I applaud you, sir, for elegant if obvious wit! I am not saying--nor do I think anyone else is saying--we should look down on others, or feel elevated for some sort of appreciation fo "higher" artistic expression, merely that we should consider how we do praise.

>>As I read the psalms I have difficulty believing the authors were primarily concerned with the right ordering of their emotions as they cried out to God.<<

Depends on the psalm. The psalms of praise (the maskils of David, written intentionally for different people, and set to tunes) were planned poetry, meant to be sung, meant to be communal. And it is in these psalms that we find the psalmist considering theology, honest reflection. Some of the psalms of despair, written while David was on the run, were spontaneous poems of desperation, and I should think he was being honest and "raw," but these were prayers between him and God, not for the community to sing. When we gather together as the Body of Christ, we each have individual things to say to God, and we say them in our own prayers, in our own hearts. But when we are called to join in singing, when someone consciously pens pieces meant for worship, he ought to follow the example of the psalmists and appeal to God not just emotionally, but intellectually as well, recalling covenants, decrees and the faithfulness of God that doesn't inspire mere joy, but a lasting, committed trust--a conscious choice.

>>And I have difficulty believing that God hears the "rightly ordered" praises first.<<

I have difficulty believing this, too. Good thing, too, since it's not what we should believe. I should think God hears the cry of the heart, even when it is not the cry on our lips. But should we not attempt to be honest and let the words on our lips connect with the groans of our hearts?

[Michael]

Wonders--

Thank you! I, too, am quite fond of that piece by Stuart Townsend. It amazes me that it was not the first thing I typed when I read Ethan's challenge, having completely slipped my mind.

[PAUL KURITZ]

"I don't think anyone really tries to think about what their singing."
Does "anyone" include you?

[Michael]

I admit that there are times when I sing absentmindedly; I am not perfect. Yet I try to make a conscious effort, especially when the song is new to me, to pick out the lyrics and discern what I am actually saying. I do not do this every single time, but I hope I do it more often than not. Not keeping statistics on the matter, I really don't know.

When I said "anyone," I meant "the general populace." Now, I maintain that I don't think most people really try to think about what they're singing. Would that I am wrong.

[GL]

Two of my favorites are "Victory in Jesus" and "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Savior." I have heard both sung several times at an inner city men's shelter at which I sometimes volunteer. Hearing those broken men, who have no sense of rhythm and who cannot carry a tune, sing from the depths of their heart, with true meaning, those two hymns lifts my soul more than any professional choir I have ever heard. If that is silly sentimentalism, then count me guilty.

[Michael]

>>If that is silly sentimentalism, then count me guilty.<<

Don't think it is, GL.

[Ethan Cordray]

Well, so far by collective effort we've got six, or maybe eight that I personally really enjoy. Beats five, I guess, but can any single person come up with a list of ten? Out of 107 years?

[Judy Warner]

I only searched up to hymn 122 out of 600 in the Anglican hymnal. I'll find you some more when I have time.

[Bobby Winters]

Judy, Wonders, et al,

Well, I was ignorant of the hymns other associations and as such judge it without the baggage. I like it. If Jesus is Lord of All, then he is Lord of the Dance that we call life.

Bobby

[Bill R]

“Perhaps Jesus judges us by the condition of our heart rather than by the condition of our hymns because only He knows the condition of our hearts.” - Paul Kuritz

But what we sing shows the condition of our hearts, the state of our minds. The question really ought to be, For Whom do we sing? I’m persuaded that, at least in many of the evangelical churches with which I’m familiar, we sing primarily to entertain ourselves. Of course we hope God is entertained too. Isn’t that what He wants? ;-)

I firmly believe that truly beautiful church music, like any great religious art, is meant to dress the church’s teaching in melody. While a number of good hymns have appeared in the last century, not many have been great. Today the congregation is rarely pushed to a greater height in worshipping its Creator, but left to feel good about its “worship experience” (ugh!). I fear we have become too self-absorbed to endure a service truly offered to God rather than to ourselves. Can we hope to approach in the 21st century the level that the ancient church achieved in the 4th?

“Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
Our full homage to demand.
King of kings, yet born of Mary,
As of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
In the body and the blood;
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.
Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
That the powers of hell may vanish
As the darkness clears away.
At His feet the six wingèd seraph,
Cherubim with sleepless eye,
Veil their faces to the presence,
As with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia
Alleluia, Lord Most High!”

--Liturgy of St. James (sung to the tune “Picardy”)

[maria horvath]

What about hymns to Our Blessed Mother to add the list? All I've found are different melodies to accompany the beautiful Ave Maria and Magnificat, but no new words, perhaps because one cannot improve on perfection.

[Michael]

>>But what we sing shows the condition of our hearts, the state of our minds. The question really ought to be, For Whom do we sing? I’m persuaded that, at least in many of the evangelical churches with which I’m familiar, we sing primarily to entertain ourselves. Of course we hope God is entertained too. Isn’t that what He wants? ;-)<<

Interesting, take, Bill. Now, of course God doesn't want to be entertained, nor does He desire in the purely human sense to be glorified. He inherently deserves to be glorified, not entertained, not pandered to.

However, let us not think the churches of the Middle Ages and later did not write songs and music with contemporary flavor. We've been down this road before on many a thread, and I think it's dangerous to suggest that there is no good in modern fashion, as you start going back and back and back until you're left with nothing created by man. We can sanctify for the use in church even "rock" music.

With this in mind, our duty is to reflect on and consider what we are singing, what we are bringing to the Lord. It is not an issue of "when" but of "how" a piece is presented. Is it presented absently, mere recitation, or with conviction and intent, consciously probing what we mean to say? I challenge you to claim someone like David Crowder is merely attempting to pander to and entertain God, rather than to bring Him glory.

[Bill R]

"We've been down this road before on many a thread, and I think it's dangerous to suggest that there is no good in modern fashion, as you start going back and back and back until you're left with nothing created by man. We can sanctify for the use in church even "rock" music."

True, Michael, but that's not my suggestion. I said I do believe there are good modern hymns (GL just cited two, although they are only "modern" in comparison with the 4th century!)--my point is that we rarely strive toward the great, and it may be nearly impossible to do so today.

Can you give me a hymn title by Crowder so I can look it up?

[Bill R]

Wonders,

"In Christ Alone" is a good, even a very good, modern hymn. Our choir (to which I belong) sings it regularly.

[Michael]

Bill,

I apologize for misreading you. It seemed implicit to me that your exhortation of our chief concern being entertainment extended to the music we use, e.g. the music is intended as entertainment as well. Whereas it might be, I simply figured this to be an unverifiable thought, and we should not judge it so far. I certainly agree with you that people who pick and choose their church based on what music they use are primarily concerned with their own entertainment.

As to Crowder, he is what the Contemporary Christian Music industry refers to as a "worship artist." So if "hymn" in this case is more loosely defined as "spiritual songs pertaining to and intending to glorify God," then he is a hymnist, but I often find that what we think of as a "hymn" is not the same as a mere "song." You can get the lyrics to the all the songs on his past five albums here. I recommend checking out the following songs:

From the album Illuminate (2003):
-"How Great"
-"O Praise Him" (All This For a King)
-"Deliver Me"
-"All Creatures #2" (this is an arrangement of St. Francis' "All Creatures of Our God and King," so I'm sure you already know it)

From the album A Collision (2006):
-"Come Awake
-"I Saw the Light" (a cover of an old Hank Williams Sr. song with an additonal verse written by the late Johnny Cash and a reprise written by Crowder)
-"Be Lifted Or Hope Rising"
-"Wholly Yours"
-"Rescue is Coming"
-"Our Happy Home" (Crowder adapted and arranged this from an old piece that he apparently found in an antique praise book; the original writer is unknown. According to cyberhymnal.org, the verses are completely different from those Crowder used. Go figure.)

From the album Can You Hear us? (2002):
-"I Need Words" (An appropriate selection for this thread. Our words cannot describe fully the depth of our relationship with God.)
-"God of Wrath"
-"God of Creation"

[Michael]

Sorry! The link on "Be Lifted Or Hope Rising" points to "I Saw the Light" all over again. The proper link is here.

[Bill R]

"Worship artist" -- one wonders what St. John Chrysostom would have thought of such a title? Or even D.L. Moody? Oh, well. Actually, a description such as "a cover of an old Hank Williams Sr. song with an additonal verse written by the late Johnny Cash and a reprise written by Crowder" catches my attention. Love Hank, love Johnny. I'm not a fuddy-duddy, even if Crowder isn't on my ipod... But if I were allowed to be Dictator for a Day, I'd still put the Episcopal Church's 1941 hymnal in every pew.

[Michael]

>>"Worship artist" -- one wonders what St. John Chrysostom would have thought of such a title? Or even D.L. Moody? Oh, well. Actually, a description such as "a cover of an old Hank Williams Sr. song with an additonal verse written by the late Johnny Cash and a reprise written by Crowder" catches my attention. Love Hank, love Johnny. I'm not a fuddy-duddy, even if Crowder isn't on my ipod... But if I were allowed to be Dictator for a Day, I'd still put the Episcopal Church's 1941 hymnal in every pew.<<

I'm not sure if Crowder refers to himself as a "worship artist," having never met the man, but it's sort of the niche he's been shoved into. CCM is an undeniable industry, and they have to market him somehow. I think it's a sad pigeonhole, "worship artist," as if worship were merely that which we present to the Lord in song.

If you appreciate Cash and Williams, you'd probably enjoy A Collision. It's a broadly defined concept album dealing with death and the Christian response of mourning comingled with eternal hope. Hence "Our Happy Home," seeking the New Jerusalem and "Be Lifted Or Hope Rising," crying "When will the suffering end" and simultaneously declaring that hope is rising all around us and the obvious intonations of "Come Awake." "I Saw The Light" was recorded in a barn filled with Crowder fans and fellow worshippers who had been invited via public weblog to come, should they have the chance, on a given date to enjoy a barbecue and hoedown, complete with fiddle and mad stomping, which are clearly heard on the album. The album has a companion book entitled Everybody Wants to Go to Heaven But Nobody Wants to Die that deals with the "eschatology of bluegrass," and the album is heavily influenced by the genre.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>What about hymns to Our Blessed Mother to add the list? All I've found are different melodies to accompany the beautiful Ave Maria and Magnificat, but no new words, perhaps because one cannot improve on perfection.<<<

It is truly proper to glorify you,
Who have borne God,
The ever-blessed, immaculate
And mother of our God,
More honorable than the Cherubim,
And beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who a virgin, gave birth to God the Word,
You, true Theotokos, we magnify.

[Wonders for Oyarsa]

Careful, now - Some of us are Protestants, here! Keep the Jesus-eating and Mary-worshiping to a minimum. ;-)

[Michael]

As a Lutheran, I'm all for the Jesus-eating, but let's scale back the Mary-reverencing. =P

[RL]

To the list of decent and non-sentimental 20th century hymns, I will add "O God of Earth and Altar," written in 1906 by G.K. Chesterton. It's in the 1940 Episcopal hymnal in the low 500s, if memory serves.

[Scott Walker]

"Let's scale back the Mary reverencing." Does that mean that she was wrong when she said, "For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."? Another ancient hymn:
"Oh gladsome light of the holy glory
of the immortal Father,
heavenly, holy blessed Jesus Christ!
Now that we have come
to the setting of the sun
and behold the light of evening,
we praise God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
For meet it is at all times to worship thee
with voices of praise
oh Son of God and Giver of life.
Therefore all the world doth glorify Thee."
Seriously beats "In The Garden".

[Judy Warner]

Your memory does serve you, RL -- it's 521. It's set to a traditional English melody arranged by Vaughan Williams. here it is.

[Judy Warner]

There is a hymn in the children's section of the 1940 hymnal that always makes me cry when we sing it. It goes like this:

I sing a song of the saints of God,
Patient and brave and true,
Who toiled and fought and lived and died
For the Lord they loved and knew.
And one was a doctor, and one was a queen,
And one was a shepherdess on the green:
They were all of them saints of God - and I mean,
God helping, to be one too.

They loved their Lord so dear, so dear,
And his love made them strong;
And they followed the right, for Jesus' sake,
The whole of their good lives long.
And one was a soldier, and one was a priest,
And one was slain by a fierce wild beast:
And there's not any reason - no, not the least -
Why I shouldn't be one too.

They lived not only in ages past,
There are hundreds of thousands still,
The world is bright with the joyous saints
Who love to do Jesus' will.
You can meet them in school, or in lanes, or at sea,
In church, or in trains, or in shops, or at tea,
For the saints of God are just folks like me,
And I mean to be one too.

By Lesbia Scott, 1929. Not good poetry and even rather silly in the last lines of the stanzas, but it is so evocative of a past era that is now lost that it moves me every time. I can imagine Oswald Bastable or Lucy Pevensie singing it, and cannot imagine any child today singing it.

[kate]

I agree absolutely that the 20th century was not the golden age of hymn-writing. Most of my favorite hymns are much older. But there were hymns written in the past 100 years that don’t make you cringe when you sing them. Unfortunately, they have been buried by the avalanche of me-and-Jesus ditties that comprise the repertoire of the typical praise band.

Taking up Ethan Cordray’s challenge, I leafed through the hymnal of my former denomination (Christian Reformed Church) and found the following 20th century texts that are worthy and are poetry with consistent meter. As for whether they are the best of the 20th century, I think that list will write itself in, say, 150 years.

Several of these authors have written a number of hymn texts (Clarkson, Wren, Pratt Green), but it must be discouraging to be a serious hymn-text writer, knowing that the churches that will use such hymns are disappearing. Most of these texts are also married to 20th century tunes in the Christian Reformed hymnal. (Marrying a text to the right tune makes the difference as to whether a hymn works.) I have sung all of these hymns in a congregation that knew how to sing and with an organist who knew how to play; some of them ‘work’ better with a congregation than others.

We come, O Christ, to You by Margaret Clarkson

Lord of creation, to You be all praise by John C. Winslow

May the mind of Christ, my Savior by Kate B. Wilkinson

In the quiet consecration of this glad communion hour by Constance H. Coote

Forth in the peace of Christ we go by James Quinn

Christ upon the mountain peak by Brian Wren

O Christ, our Lord, dear Son of God by Calvin Seerveld

For your gift of God the Spirit by Margaret Clarkson

Let all things now living by Katherine K. Davis

For the fruits of his creation, thanks be to God by Fred Pratt Green

When in our music God is glorified by Fred Pratt Green

In Christ there is no east or west by Michael A. Perry

Lord, whose love in humble service by Albert F. Bayly

Btw, thanks Tony Esolen for articulating what some of us intuit about the triumph of feeling-based worship.

[Hymn Searcher]

Here are what I consider some of the better 20th century hymns (judging from when the text was written). I found the dates online and in my hymnal companion.

-Now All the Vault of Heaven Resounds (No exact date known, but probably 1910s-30s)

-We Know That Christ Was Raised and Dies No More (one of my personal favorites) (1967)

-Now We Join in Celebration (sometime between 1952 and 1972)

-We Who Once Were Dead (1961)

-Rise Up, O Men of God! (1911)

-Praise and Thanksgiving Father We Offer (1950s-60s)

-Let All Things Now Living (1920s)

-Lord Whose Love in Humble Service (1961)

-Christ Is Alive, Let Christians Sing (1969)

I was going to suggest This Joyful Eastertide, but a little web research shows that was actually written in 1894. So close.

[Jenny Islander]

I wish that more people would sing the Chesterton hymn more often these days.

From all that terror teaches,
From lies of tongue and pen,
From all the easy speeches
That comfort cruel men,
From sale and profanation
Of honor, and the sword,
From sleep, and from damnation,
Deliver us, good Lord!

Any hymn that includes the plea "Smite us and save us all" should be kept in rotation.

Here are two I sing around the house to lift me up:

The thunder and lightning gave voice to the night;
the little lame child cried aloud in her fright.
"Hush, little baby, a story I'll tell,
of a love that has vanquished the powers of hell.”
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!

"Sweetness in the air, and justice on the wind,
laughter in the house where the mourners had been.
The deaf shall have music, the blind have new eyes,
the standards of death taken down by surprise.”
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!

"Release for the captives, an end to the wars,
new streams in the desert, new hope for the poor.
The little lame children will dance as they sing,
and play with the bears and the lions in spring. “
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!

"Hush little baby, let go of your fear:
the Lord loves his own, and your mother is here."
The child fell asleep as the lantern did burn.
The mother sang on 'till her Bridegroom's return.
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!
Alleluia, the great storm is over, lift up your wings and fly!

And:

My life goes on in endless song
Above Earth's lamentation.
I hear the real though far-off hymn
That hails a new creation.
Through all the tumult and the strife
I hear its music ringing;
It sounds an echo in my soul:
How can I keep from singing?

What though the tempest loudly roars;
I know the Truth; it liveth!
And though the darkness round me close,
Songs in the night it giveth.
No storm can shake my inmost calm
While to that rock I'm clinging;
Since Love is Lord of Heaven and Earth,
How can I keep from singing?

When tyrants tremble in their fear
And hear their death knell ringing,
When friends rejoice both far and near,
How can I keep from singing?
In prison cell and dungeon vile
Our thoughts to them are winging;
When friends by shame are undefiled,
How can I keep from singing?

I like "Lord of the Dance" precisely because of its tinge of uncomfortable wildness, probably the same thing that attracts neo-pagans to it. Singing it reminds me that "Aslan is not a tame lion," that Jesus is not the nice neighbor down the street who dispenses wisdom over coffee, but the Man who upset everyone who was expecting Him.

I realize that the following song by Eliza Gilkyson is probably not doctrinally pure, but it reminds me of my struggle to follow the Christian spiritual disciplines, so I sing it now and then:

In the land of skin and sorrow
Lies a heart of purest gold
Who is waiting for the lost ones
To come back into the fold.
Some will wander in today,
Some hold back until tomorrow,
But the door will soon be closing
In the land of skin and sorrow.

Climbing out is never easy
On this ladder, rung by rung-
Swinging wildly in the breezes,
Souls emerging one by one.
As it was in the beginning,
It will be again tomorrow
While the lamp of love still burns here
In the land of skin and sorrow.

Beasts of burden, beasts of prey
Will lay down their coats of clay.
We must return all that we borrow
From the land of skin and sorrow.

[Stuart Koehl]

I guess this is out, then?

Hail, O you through whom joy will shine forth,
Hail, O you through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the fallen Adam,
Hail, O Redemption of the tears of Eve!

Hail, O Peak beyond the reach of human thought,
Hail, O Depth beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who became a kingly throne,
Hail, O you who carries Him who carries all!

Hail, O Star who manifests the Sun,
Hail, O Womb of the divine incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed,
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes babe!

Hail, O Bride and Maiden, ever pure!

---Akathistos to the Theotokos, Ikos 1 (Romanos the Melodist, 5th century)

[David Gray]

>Does that mean that she was wrong when she said, "For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."?

No.

[Ethan Cordray]

Judy, I'm afraid with "I Sing a Song of the Saints of God" you've hit upon one of least favorite hymns. We sang it once in an Episcopal church I attended in Wheaton, and I totally cracked up at "one was eaten by a fierce wild beast." The English have their excesses, too. It's not sentimental, though, at least in Tony's sense.

The Chesterton hymn is quite wonderful, though from the Midi the tune sounds a bit difficult. I also think the Midi it isn't embedded correctly; it seems to resolve in the middle of the verses, but not at the end.

[Wonders for Oyarsa]

I joked with one of my best friends (a recent convert to Roman Catholicism) that in their Church Mary is one of the persons of the trinity. Getting four persons into three persons is part of the mystery.

He responded that that makes sense of some of the ancient texts of the Fathers. They refer to the "Father, Son, and Holy [Mother of God] and Spirit". That extra "and" had always been rather mysterious.

[James A. Altena]

"We can sanctify for the use in church even 'rock' music."

No. We've also been down that road on a previous thread a couple of months back. And I continue to maintain (along with Dr. Hutchens) that rock "music" (and even to call it "music" is to bestow upon it underserved dignity) *cannot* be so sanctified. It is, to quote a music critic from another context, "pornophony" -- aural pornography, obscenity in an auditory rather than visual form and medium -- and what is inherently decadent and corrupt cannot be sanctified.

This harkens back to my comment in my previous post about aesthetic relativism being conjoined to epistemological and moral relativism. There is an intimate connection between the notion that art is merely a matter of subjective taste and hence relative, and that knowledge and moral values are likewise equally subjective and relative. Whereas instead art is a means for the expression of the the true, the good, and the beautiful, and hence has objective content and value which is of moral as well as technical character.

[Judy Warner]

I didn't expect you to like it, Ethan. I'm of a different generation than you, and it just reminds me of things. I smile at it to. But you're right, and I thought of that after posting -- it is not sentimental and it is not about the tender feelings of the children who presumably are singing it; it's about courage and determination. By the way, do you think anyone would name a daughter Lesbia nowadays, as the author of the hymn is named?

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>"We can sanctify for the use in church even 'rock' music."<<<

Whenever people say they want to express Christianity in a secular idiom, invariably they end up expressing secularism in a Christian idiom.

[GL]

By the way, do you think anyone would name a daughter Lesbia nowadays, as the author of the hymn is named?

Yes, but she likely would not grow up to be a hymn writer or, if she did, it would be despite the influence of her "mothers", not because of it.

[Bobby Winters]

Psalm 96
1 Sing to the LORD a new song;
sing to the LORD, all the earth.

2 Sing to the LORD, praise his name;
proclaim his salvation day after day.

3 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples.

4 For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise;
he is to be feared above all gods.

5 For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the LORD made the heavens.

6 Splendor and majesty are before him;
strength and glory are in his sanctuary.

7 Ascribe to the LORD, O families of nations,
ascribe to the LORD glory and strength.

8 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name;
bring an offering and come into his courts.

9 Worship the LORD in the splendor of his [a] holiness;
tremble before him, all the earth.

10 Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns."
The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved;
he will judge the peoples with equity.

11 Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad;
let the sea resound, and all that is in it;

12 let the fields be jubilant, and everything in them.
Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy;

13 they will sing before the LORD, for he comes,
he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples in his truth.

He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples in his truth.

[Rob Grano]

I was under the impression that 'I Sing a Song of the Saints of God' was a children's hymn that adults occasionally sang (on All Saints' Day, for instance.) As such, I was always willing to give its occasional 'corniness' a pass, as I think you have to do with much children's music (which, BTW, doesn't really seem to exist much anymore -- most music aimed at children nowadays is 'dumbed down' rock and pop.) When I was growing up in the 60s, there were whole record labels -- Golden Records, Peter Pan, Disneyland, etc. -- devoted to children's music and stories. Are any of them still even around?

Kids listening to pop and rock instead of children's music is another mark, IMO, of our culture's spiral into the toilet.

[GL]

Well, since Bobby keeps citing Psalms and Ethan wants a list of 20th century hymns of quality, I am going to cheat and suggest that Ethan consider all the 20th century versifications of the Psalms found in The Book of Psalms for Singing and The Trinity Psalter, though technically these are not hymns, being paraphrases of the Psalms, and are 20th century only to the extent of the modern paraphrasing of the ancient text.

In the same vein, Concordia Publishing House is publishing in July Reading the Psalms with Luther, which, as I understand it, will have the ESV translation of all 150 Psalms pointed for chanting. Again, I suppose offering this is cheating.

[GL]

Oh, and I should have included The Psalter According to the Seventy, a 20th century translation which I love, but I must admit that I find the chants to be a little heavy for my taste. No offense to my Orthodox brethern intended.

[Bobby Winters]

Artist: Alison Krauss Lyrics
Song: Down to the River to Pray Lyrics
As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the starry crown
Good Lord, show me the way !

O sisters let's go down,
Let's go down, come on down,
O sisters let's go down,
Down in the river to pray.

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the robe and crown
Good Lord, show me the way !

O brothers let's go down,
Let's go down, come on down,
Come on brothers let's go down,
Down in the river to pray.

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the starry crown
Good Lord, show me the way !

O fathers let's go down,
Let's go down, come on down,
O fathers let's go down,
Down in the river to pray.

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the robe and crown
Good Lord, show me the way !

O mothers let's go down,
Let's go down, don't you want to go down,
Come on mothers let's go down,
Down in the river to pray.

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the starry crown
Good Lord, show me the way !

O sinners let's go down,
Let's go down, come on down,
O sinners let's go down,
Down in the river to pray.

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the robe and crown
Good Lord, show me the way !

[Juli]

I can imagine Oswald Bastable or Lucy Pevensie singing it, and cannot imagine any child today singing it.

Well, my children certainly learned it in church choir at an Episcopal church, and that's w/in the last 10 years or so. I didn't grow up Episcopalian, so I learned it as an adult. There's a very sweet children's book of that hymn - the illustrations show children putting on a pageant about "the saints of God."

I think the Byzantine liturgy is entirely lacking in words about feelings

Is that a claim about the Divine Liturgy specifically, or Orthodox worship generally?

Well, so far by collective effort we've got six, or maybe eight that I personally really enjoy

Wasn't the point of this thread that what we "personally really enjoy" is beside the point?

[Zamir]

'Whereas instead art is a means for the expression of the the true, the good, and the beautiful,'

You may wish for it, or hope it is so, but to prove that this is the purpose of art you will have a big problem.

[Judy Warner]

Rob, you are so right about children's music (and also about "I sing a song of the Saints of God"). When I was growing up there was a lot of music specifically for children, including classical things like Tubby the Tuba and Peter and the Wolf, folk music, and patriotic songs. When my daughter was little -- she's 21 now -- there was also a lot: singers like Raffi, Sharon Lois & Bram, John McCutcheon, and Maria Muldaur; Wee Sing tapes; and still-in-print recordings by Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and other oldies. But when I tried to find music for my grandchildren I had a hard time. Everything nowadays has to have a beat; all children's music seems to be geared toward their parents. I searched around on line and found some bluegrass-type songs and a couple of other things. The only newer thing I like a lot is a series called Beethoven's Wig, which takes well-known classical pieces like the beginning of Beethoven's 5th and Can-Can and puts words to them. It is very funny and the kids love it. Otherwise their favorite is an ancient John McCutcheon tape.

(A lot of the old children's singers are annoying leftists and some of the lyrics reflect that. But it's a fact that there are no right-wing folk singers.)

It's just another sign of our narcissistic society. I guess grownups can't conceive of a child like any different music from what they like or that a child's needs might be different from their own. These are the same people who take their kids to R-rated movies when they're three to avoid leaving them with a babysitter.

[Zamir]

'It's just another sign of our narcissistic society. '

Judy,

It's not narcissism but profit that drives these things.

[Michael]

>>You may wish for it, or hope it is so, but to prove that this is the purpose of art you will have a big problem.<<

Zamir,

I didn't respond to Mr. Altena's comments precisely because we have been down this road before, and it leads to nowhere. Mr. Altena will maintain that art is meant to convey beauty and truth, and I will respond that he is absolutely correct, but that we can't chuck rock as a genre away, citing specific bands and lyrics that speak of God's truth. Someone else will in turn speak of how these bands are anomalies, not the true central phenomenon of rock, and then someone else will say that they are incredibly egotistical to think they alone know the true root of rock music. It will go on like this for a while, someone eventually equating rock music with sex, drugs, rebellion, etc., which will irritate another commenter, who will cite the evolution of rock from American blues and nice wholesome bands prior to the emergence of the Rolling Stones. The argument doesn't end because those on Mr. Altena's side are too stubborn to have a real discussion, and those on my side are too young to know any better.

Just let it slide. Mr. Altena, Mr. Koehl, et al. know full well that the Church has a long history of sanctifying that which was used to the glory of the god of lesser things, be they symbols or practices. They just aren't happy to extend that right to "rock" music of any form. Perhaps one day I shall be convicted by conscience and God of my present folly, but I'm not betting on it.

[Bill R]

"Perhaps one day I shall be convicted by conscience and God of my present folly, but I'm not betting on it."

Actually, Michael, a safer bet is plain ol' age and hearing loss!

[Michael]

Bill,

You crack me up! If I ever get into the habit of listening to music at a volume damaging to my inner ear, I pray someone will just fire a twelve-gauge over my shoulder. Skip the misery, screw me up quick.

[Zamir]

Michael,

I had a very tiring day at work and was not in high spirits, but like a good rock song, you gave me some energy back and made me smile.
Thanks : ).

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Mr. Altena, Mr. Koehl, et al. know full well that the Church has a long history of sanctifying that which was used to the glory of the god of lesser things, be they symbols or practices.<<<

Michael misconstrues, particularly with regard to liturgy. The early Church existed in a milieu that had both secular and sacred musical genres, albeit the sacred genre was divided between pagan and Judaic. When the Church began to shape its liturgy, it reached not into the corpus of secular music but first into the body of Judaic liturgical music (particularly the Synagogue rite and its associated psalmody), and then into pagan liturgical music. This is the music it took and baptized. It ignored secular music--until well into the 16th century, in fact--precisely because the idiom of secular music was intended to mirror the world and its attitudes. Even pagan liturgical music differed from secular music of its day, and the two genres did not mix. The early Church in particular eschewed arranged and instrumental music on the assumption that earthly liturgy is an icon of the heavenly Divine Liturgy in which Christ and the Angelic Choirs offer praise before the throne of the Father. Thus, the introduction of instrumental music into the Latin Church (in the form of the organ) in the late 11th and early 12th century was received as an innovation and met with a mixed reception even in the West (it took several hundred years for organ music to be universally accepted in the Western Church). Similarly, the introduction of polyphonic composed liturgical music (of a complexity that precluded its use by untrained voices) represented a serious intrusion of secular forms into the liturgical realm, and as such a major disruption of the liturgical tradition. This migrated from the West to the East when Italian composers were summoned to Russia in the mid-17th century. Ironically, in the a capella psalmody of the Congregationalists and Presybterians, we are closer to the authentic liturgical tradition than we are in the quasi-operatic works of Palestrina, Haydn, Mozart, Bortniansky, Tchaikovsky and Rochmaninov--to say nothing of the abomnations of Marty Haugin and the St. Louis Jesuits.

Yes, the Church makes use of the materials of the cultures it evangelizes. No, it does not mindlessly pick up whatever is lying around without first discerning whether it intrinsically is compatible with Christian worship. Until quite recently, the Church was notibly reluctant to access low popular culture--whether in music, decoration, architecture or vestment--for use in liturgical worship.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Mr. Altena will maintain that art is meant to convey beauty and truth, and I will respond that he is absolutely correct, but that we can't chuck rock as a genre away, citing specific bands and lyrics that speak of God's truth.<<<

Sure we can.

[Bill R]

"Yes, the Church makes use of the materials of the cultures it evangelizes. No, it does not mindlessly pick up whatever is lying around without first discerning whether it intrinsically is compatible with Christian worship. Until quite recently, the Church was notibly reluctant to access low popular culture--whether in music, decoration, architecture or vestment--for use in liturgical worship."

Very well said, Stuart. It may also be helpful to reflect on the purpose of sacred music, as opposed to the purpose of secular music. It's not that the latter cannot in all cases be baptized into use as the former, but that in general each serves a different purpose and therefore the mode of one is not intrinsically well-suited to the other. Thus the general purpose of secular music is to entertain by inducing a particular mood. Lyrics in secular music may be interesting, but how often are they profound? They may not even be required. On the other hand, in sacred music the libretto is crucial and the notes must not overpower it. Mere tones rarely work as sacred music: the words are almost always required for its purpose. Thus in general sacred music ought not to be overly-loud or dominated by instruments other than the voice. But in much secular music, particularly if it is amplified, words have a secondary importance, which may be partially or entirely obscured in performance. For most sacred music that would be unacceptable.

[Gene Godbold]

Stuart does a darn good curmudgeon impersonation, no?

[Michael]

Stuart,

As always, thanks for the history lesson! Your vast knowledge is always something to look forward to in a debate, whether I think your conclusions are wrong or right. That said, I'm sticking to my instinct regarding this particular moment for argumentation--I'm abstaining from it. We seek no wider war.

[GL]

Ironically, in the a capella psalmody of the Congregationalists and Presybterians, we are closer to the authentic liturgical tradition than we are in the quasi-operatic works of Palestrina, Haydn, Mozart, Bortniansky, Tchaikovsky and Rochmaninov--to say nothing of the abomnations of Marty Haugin and the St. Louis Jesuits.

Stuart,

Why do you say "[i]ronically"? Whatever one may think of the doctrines of the Reformed tradition, I believe it is clear that a cappella psalmody was adopted explicitly to return to a more ancient use of the psalms in worship than existed in the Western Church at that time. That being the case, its being closer to "the authentic liturgical tradition" was not happenstance, but was precisely the goal being sought. They may have missed their mark, a point for another thread perhaps, but that they were close was not "ironic."

[Bobby Winters]

>>>Lyrics in secular music may be interesting, but how often are they profound? <<<

Title :Five For Fighting - 100 Years
This is lyrics from www.lyrics007.com

I'm 15 for a moment
Caught in between 10 and 20
And I'm just dreaming
Counting the ways to where you are
I'm 22 for a moment
She feels better than ever
And we're on fire
Making our way back from Mars
15 there's still time for you
Time to buy and time to lose
15, there's never a wish better than this
When you only got 100 years to live
I'm 33 for a moment
Still the man, but you see I'm a they
A kid on the way
A family on my mind
I'm 45 for a moment
The sea is high
And I'm heading into a crisis
Chasing the years of my life
15 there's still time for you
Time to buy, Time to lose yourself
Within a morning star
15 I'm all right with you
15, there's never a wish better than this
When you only got 100 years to live
Half time goes by
Suddenly you’re wise
Another blink of an eye
67 is gone
The sun is getting high
We're moving on...
I'm 99 for a moment
Dying for just another moment
And I'm just dreaming
Counting the ways to where you are
15 there's still time for you
22 I feel her too
33 you’re on your way
Every day's a new day...
15 there's still time for you
Time to buy and time to choose
Hey 15, there's never a wish better than this
When you only got 100 years to live

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Why do you say "[i]ronically"? <<<

Mainly because both the Congregationalists and the Presbyterians opted for a very "low" form of liturgy, one which revolved not so much around the sacraments as around the sermon, which, whether one agrees or disagrees with Reformation theology, differs significantly from the shape of liturgy in the first Christian millennium.

[Thomas H.]

You may wish for it, or hope it is so, but to prove that this is the purpose of art you will have a big problem.

Purpose of art? …PURPOSE??

Like the purpose of flossing?

One could just as well ask what is the purpose of inspiration, or joy, or gratitude, or generosity...

Art with a purpose is propaganda.

[Bill R]

Bobby, I'd say that was almost theological. So I'm sticking by my statement! ;-)

[Michael]

>>Lyrics in secular music may be interesting, but how often are they profound?<<

Following in Mr Winter's Five for Fighting footsteps, I present to you "The Last Great American" from the album Americatown.

Mr. merry cries in his coffin For days he says he can remember And through the town the pallbearers sing old songs Of a beautiful purple mountain From every walk of life weve come to see the last great american

May I now present you the speaker,
friends he was a man of men, a man of gold
He had a how do you say, ethical like sense
Thats when the president started to giggle
And the children gave the blessing
Though the service werent half done
Each of them sued the other one
For the last great american

Merry reaches up, we bow our heads
He pulls the lid on down and his stone is read

Here lies our merry
The man with the heart so spent
That in this day and age
Is sick of living

And judges argue letters
Fabric comes undone
For every daughter every son
Of the last great american

For every daughter every son
Of the last great american

[Ethan Cordray]

Judy,

I too was raised on quality kids' music, especially folk songs. I think you're right that it's mostly disappeared in the past...gosh, only 10 or 15 years. Why has it happened so fast?

>>But it's a fact that there are no right-wing folk singers.<<

Unless you count Bob Dylan.:-) There's also Janet Greene from the good old days...

Juli,

>>Wasn't the point of this thread that what we "personally really enjoy" is beside the point?<<

You got me on that one! :-) You're right that I switched the focus from simple anti-sentimentality to general artistic quality (in my opinion, of course!). But hopefully our tastes reflect something essentially truthful about artistic quality, if more often in what we hate than in what we like.

[David Gray]

>Mainly because both the Congregationalists and the Presbyterians opted for a very "low" form of liturgy, one which revolved not so much around the sacraments as around the sermon, which, whether one agrees or disagrees with Reformation theology, differs significantly from the shape of liturgy in the first Christian millennium.

Your knowledge of Presbyterian worship has, in the past, been abysmally bad. What have you done to improve it?

[Rob Grano]

"It's not narcissism but profit that drives these things."

Actually it's both -- the two things feed each other.

"I guess grownups can't conceive of a child like any different music from what they like or that a child's needs might be different from their own."

Much modern music is certainly juvenile but it's not childlike, that's for sure.

"Ironically, in the a capella psalmody of the Congregationalists and Presybterians, we are closer to the authentic liturgical tradition..."

Indeed. In fact, the shape-note singing we mentioned on another thread can sound amazingly like Byzantine or Russian chant. And I have a CD of non-liturgical Russian sacred song, 'pilgrim's music' as it's sometimes known, which in some places sounds a lot like shape-note or even Celtic folk song.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>"I guess grownups can't conceive of a child like any different music from what they like or that a child's needs might be different from their own."<<<

That would be precisely my point: young people today are surrounded by one particular idiom of music, homogenized, productized pablum. Whether it's secular or ostensibly "sacred", it sounds the same, and it has the same fundamental problem: it's individualistic, egocentric, emotional and sentimental. Which is why, when exposed to it, most young people respond very positively to traditional sacred music, whether it's Gregorian chant, or Congregationalist psalmody, or shape-note music, or Russian Great Znamenny, or Carpatho-Rusyn Prostopinje. There is a yearning for the numinous, and the numouns cannot be found in the quotidian.

[Rob Grano]

"Your knowledge of Presbyterian worship has, in the past, been abysmally bad. What have you done to improve it?"

Can't speak for Stuart re: past comments but on this one he's right. Those churches have a "low" liturgy (if you want to call it that) but their singing style itself is much closer to the music of the pre-Renaissance Western church or the Russian church before the Western influence came in.

[Josiah A. Roelfsema]

Ethan,

You are vindicated: I admit my mistake. "How Great Thou Art" was actually written in 1885 by the Swedish minister Carl Boberg. It was only translated into English and copyrighted by Stuart Hine in 1953. Last night as I went to play it on the piano I realized my mistake, so now my list is only four.

Thanks for the challenge though, it has been interesting to see the responses.

Josiah