Incensed about Incense

This is a writing about the problem of incense in worship: second-hand smoke, and besides, it makes the writer cross that folks will think their congregation might believe in "catholic" doctrines by using high-church incense. Fr. Pat Reardon responded: "The Book of Revelation speaks of only two odors in the afterlife: incense and brimstone. There is, apparently, no third choice. Dean Yardley doesn’t like incense."

Comments

[Ben]

Just what I want to read: another pc dimwit complaining about something.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>There is, apparently, no third choice.<<<

There is a third--low tar incense. The priest at my Ruthenian parish is allergic to two things--"everything inside" and "everything outside", which includes smoke from incense. His solution is a type called "Three Kings", which is kind of citrusy but does not give off the kind of thick, heavy smoke common with frankincense and other resin-based incenses. It seems to work for him. On the other hand, there is nothing quite like the great, billowy clouds of fragrant white smoke that comes from using the real thing.

[JSullivan]

Well said, Fr. Reardon.

As an aside, I don't trust the opinion of anyone still using LiveJournal.

[maggie]

This Christmas was my first at my new church here in SoCal. The rector is incredibly fond of incense, which I love...but during our Christmas Eve Vigil service I had truly never seen so much of the stuff used at once. The altar at points looked like it was on fire, and even I started feeling light-headed ;-) Powerful in several senses ;-D

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>This Christmas was my first at my new church here in SoCal. The rector is incredibly fond of incense, which I love...but during our Christmas Eve Vigil service I had truly never seen so much of the stuff used at once. The altar at points looked like it was on fire, and even I started feeling light-headed ;-) Powerful in several senses ;-D<<<

Some day, you should attend the Qurbana of the Assyrian Church of the East--I believe they have several parishes in Southern California. My experience as mercenary altar boy was their preference for extremely large censers and incense by the shovelful.

I also found it interesting that the Copts in my area like to change flavors several times during their liturgies.

[W.E.D. Godbold]

Do you think a series called "Copts" could make it on cable TV? You could have shows on the effects of incense (with maybe people passing out mid-service) and some about their more violent encounters with the Muslim Brotherhood. "Bad boys, bad boys" indeed.
:-)

[Margaret]

I loved St Mary of the Angels in Hollywood for its incense... wish we had it in my parish--the very odor of sanctity.

[stuart Koehl]

>>>Do you think a series called "Copts" could make it on cable TV? You could have shows on the effects of incense (with maybe people passing out mid-service) and some about their more violent encounters with the Muslim Brotherhood. "Bad boys, bad boys" indeed.
:-)<<<

They could keep time using the finger cymbals they clang while chanting.

[W.E.D. Godbold]

I'll have my people talk to your people.

[Chelie]

When I was an Episcopalian, I didn't like the smell of incense but once I converted to Orthodoxy I found the incense is much nicer - less "heavy". I, too, am allergic to many things (pine being a major player) but I put up with the former version of incense because, as Fr. Pat said, it is a heavenly odor. I much prefer the incense now!

[Stuart Koehl]

I am not familiar with the types of incense used in the Episcopal Church. My experience with Roman liturgies (as part of the Orientale Lumen Conferences) is that they use powdered incense, which tends to be fast-burning, creating large clouds of greasy smoke. There also seems to be a penchant for floral scents that, to my nose, are far too heavy and cloying.

[Stuart Koehl]

Apropos incense silliness, one year during the Orientale Lumen Conference we were staying at a Retreat House run by nuns, across the street from the John Paul II center. It was convenient for us to celebrate Orthros in their chapel each morning, until I was told by the Mother Superior that the Fire Marshall had made them install a smoke alarm system in the chapel, so we could not use incense. Moreover, the system was so sensitive that we could only have two fake (butane) candles. The archimandrite who was celebrating Orthros was totally nonplussed.

While we're in that neighborhood, as the Megaloskeuophylax (Grand Sacristan) of the Conferences, it is my job to coordinate all the liturgical activities and ensure that they are properly supplied. We used to celebrate Eucharistic Liturgies in the Crypt Church of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC. I would have to go to the Austrian nuns who were the sacristans of the Shrine to beg and borrow plate and candles.

"How many candles do you need?", said the head nun, doing a credible Arnold impersonation.

"Let's see--thirteen ought to do", I replied.

"Thirteen!?!", she blustered, drawing up to a formidable height. "The Archbishop never asked for more than two!"

One final story.

One day at Epiphany of Our Lord Byzantine Catholic Church, the Fire Marshall paid a visit (never a good thing, almost as bad as a visit from the bishop). Looking around just after a Tuesday Liturgy, he waited until all the parishoners had departed, then approach the celebrant, Father Scott, and told him to put out the Lampadas in front of the iconostasis.

"OK", said Father Scott, who was busy tidying up the sanctuary.

"No", said the Fire Marshall, "Right now! And don't leave any candles burning, either".

Father Scott protested that the votive candles should be allowed to burn out on their own.

"No. These candle racks are not secure enough. If one should fall over, the candles could start a fire"

Father Scott protested that the candle stands had been used in the church for almost three decades, and the church was still standing. No deal. She made Father Scott extinguish the votives.

That done, he was getting ready to leave, when the Fire Marshall turned, pointed up towards the ceiling, and said, "Extinguish that one, too!" She was pointing to the lamp that is lit whenever any of the Eucharist is reserved in the Tabernacle.

Father Scott was--and I mean this--appalled. He dug in his heels, and flat out refused. He explained the significance of the candle, and why it was never extinguished. She threatened to close the church. He got the pastor to come down from the rectory. The pastor and the Fire Marshall exchanged some words. Both priests were adamant--that candle was not going to be put out. There was more talk about fire code. Then there was talk about calling not just the Ruthenian bishop (who, after all, lives in New Jersey), but the Bishop of Arlington, in whose territory we coexist. And of calling the Country Supervisor. And of calling a lawyer.

There was a lot of harumphing and posturing, but eventually the Fire Marshall left, with the sacred light still burning. But she left behind a long list of nits she decided to pick,including modifications to the candle stands that cost us several hundreds of dollars and did nothing to make them any safer. The only real purpose was to harass and collect.

[Gina]

Do you think a series called "Copts" could make it on cable TV? You could have shows on the effects of incense (with maybe people passing out mid-service) and some about their more violent encounters with the Muslim Brotherhood. "Bad boys, bad boys" indeed.

LOL, my husband will love that one.

We are converts in the Coptic church, so our wedding was the first time much of our family had experienced incense. My poor father-in-law was already coughing when the priest put the censer on its stand and gave him a steady stream for a good ten minutes or so.

[Stuart Koehl]

Never been to a Coptic wedding; I'll have to correct that omission.

So, when you say you are converts to the Coptic Church, does this mean that both you and your husband had no previous connection to the Coptic Church? If so, how were you received? By baptism (or re-baptism as the case may be) or by Chrismation?

[Bobby Neal Winters]

As a Methodist, I've never experienced the incense thing. I do love the smell of a freshly snuffed candle however.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>As a Methodist, I've never experienced the incense thing. I do love the smell of a freshly snuffed candle however.<<<

I guess the difference between us is literalism: When we sing, "Let my prayer ascend to Thee like incense, the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice", we also do it.

[Irenaeus]

Monastery Icons (monasteryicons.com) sells incense they claim is easy on the olfactories.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Monastery Icons (monasteryicons.com) sells incense they claim is easy on the olfactories.<<<

I've tried some of their incense. It's OK. I usually get mine through the Icon and Book Service in Washington, which imports from the Middle East.

[Bobby Neal Winters]

>>I guess the difference between us is literalism: When we sing, "Let my prayer ascend to Thee like incense, the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice", we also do it.<<

We don't even use the word incense in songs, but when we sing "I'll fly away" there's no actual flapping (usually) so your point holds.

[DBP+]

"Some day, you should attend the Qurbana of the Assyrian Church of the East--I believe they have several parishes in Southern California. My experience as mercenary altar boy was their preference for extremely large censers and incense by the shovelful."

As an occasional participant in the Holy Qurbana, I can attest to the copious amount of incense used. My trouble was the archbishop's penchant for thick clouds of "Damascus Rose" and other too-sweet-for-me scents.

I never could get him to try either Three Kings or my very Anglican mix from Baumer instead. He did, however, kindly switch to oil candles so I wasn't perpetually scraping the dripped wax from our wood floors.

And yes, the article is ridiculous.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>We don't even use the word incense in songs, but when we sing "I'll fly away" there's no actual flapping (usually) so your point holds.<<<

Kind of hard to avoid using the word, if you are into psalmody at all. But my actual point was about "sacramental realism"--to erase the boundary between "symbolic" and the "real", we deliberately involve both matter and our own bodies into the actions represented in the sacraments. Also, our liturgical symbolism has two primary sources: descriptions of the worship in the Temple of Solomon, and descriptions of the heavenly liturgy found in the Apocalypse of John. In both those cases, incense figures prominently, and as we strive to conform our liturgy to those (particularly the latter), we, too, use incense, and use Psalms as our guide as to when.

By the same token, in baptism we immerse fully, going down into death with Christ and rising with him on the third day. In chrismation, we anoint ourselves in the manner that David was anointed by Samuel, and Christ by the women at the tomb. In marriage, we literally put on crowns of kingship, triumph and martyrdom. In the Eucharist itself, the Rite of Preparation involves an elaborate recapitulation of the life of Christ, his death upon the cross (we have a liturgical knife used to prepare the bread which is known as a "lance"), and his glorious resurrection. The very tangible reality of the liturgy and the sacraments involves the whole person, body, soul and spirit, into the life of Christ, and thus facilitates our sharing in the divine nature. It creates an air of anamnesis, of a "recalling to mind" that is, in fact, mystical participation in the events being represented. Again, the line between symbol and reality disappears, and we are present in the Kingdom, even though still bound to this world.

[Fr. Bill]

Yet another field-report ...

Our parish rarely sees incense dispersed in a thurible (usually when the bishop visits).

On the other hand, incense is used in every service, modeled on the pattern and precendence of its use in the OT tabernacle and subsequent temples, viz. during The Prayers.

We use a brass table censer (two of them, one for penitential seasons, a different one for other seasons), which contains a bed of sand on which the ignited coal is set. In our liturgy, the coal is ignited just before the homily, and the Prayers of the People follow. Before the Prayers, incense is laid on the coal and it burns throughout the Prayers.

The censer sits on the altar, and during the prayers, the smoke rises straight upwards about six feet or so, and then it "pools" in a cloud above the altar. On Sunday mornings, the sun streams through the colored glass windows in the wall above and behind the altar, so that the cloud of incense over the altar takes on the multi-colored hues of the windows and generally glows from the sunlight streaming through it.

During the Prayers, the pool of smoke disperses very slowly in a "blanket" about 10 feet above the floor of the nave. This is visible to all in the congregation. The blanket of smoke takes the shape of very slowly undulating waves. Congregants can smell the incese at this point, but it is not overpowering.

When the prayers are concluded and I begin to prepare the elements for the Eucharist, I use the tongs to rake sand over the burning coal, and set the censer aside on a stand to the left of the altar. The visible smoke dissipates within a few minutes, but the soft odor of incense permeates the chapel during the remainder of the Eucharist.

We use Trinity brand Ethiopian myrhh during penitential seasons. It has a distinctly medicinal smell -- not floral or perfumy at all, useful to remind us of the nature of the season. Other times, we use Trinity's various "chokeless" incense. Our favorites are floral and forest. Christmas and Easter seasons we use frankincense and cedar shavings. The congregation has easily associated the scents with the seasons.

[stuart Koehl]

I'm curious, Father. in what rite are you celebrating?

[Fr. Bill]

"...in what rie are you celebrating?"

I hesitate to name the jurisdiction -- it was a merger of two of the continuing jurisdictions. Nothing wrong with it. We're all looking longingly and praying fervently that the current Anglican mess will coalesce into a new, orthodox world-wide communion.

Our liturgy is straight 1928 American BCP with addenda which my bishop approved. For example, the use of incense I described he approved as following Biblical pattern and precedent, and commented that this use of incense was found most often in the West among various monastic orders, but almost never in parish worship.

Another addenda is to make space for members of the congregation to offer prayers of petition and thanksgiving during the Prayers of the People. For this, I taught them how to compose prayers in collect form, then urged them to prepare their prayers before coming to worship and to read out the prayers they had prepared. Their prayers and thanksgivings not only edify their fellow parishioners, but honor the Lord who is petitioned and thanked publiclly in the midst of the congregation.

We sing the Psalter and canticles to Anglican chant. Again, this is nothing novel. More of a throwback to earlier practice among Anglicans. But the bones of the service (Morning Prayer followed by Holy Eucharist) comes straight out of the 1928 BCP with no fudging anywhere.

[Stuart Koehl]

Sounds very beautiful. I hope some day to have the opportunity to observe it.

[Judy K. Warner]

Stuart, you stay underwater for three days when you're baptized?

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Stuart, you stay underwater for three days when you're baptized?<<<

It's all about breath control.

[labrialumn]

I love the incense.

But I think condemnations and snide remarks at people who's bodies respond to incense by closing up airways is deplorable.

Not comprehending the words "as" and "like", Stuart, is not literalism, it is ignorance.

[Cleo]

I think it all depends on the size and configuration of the worship space. Some buildings are just not high-ceilinged enough or well-ventilated enough to handle it. Our modern buildings are very different from the cathedrals and temples of old.

[Ranee]

We have a priest, a military chaplain, who said that during his liturgical courses in seminary, he had been put in charge of the incense at Easter. He put so much of it in that when people came to receive the Eucharist, they could not see the priest and a hand came out of a cloud of smoke to offer them the bread and wine.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>I think it all depends on the size and configuration of the worship space. Some buildings are just not high-ceilinged enough or well-ventilated enough to handle it. Our modern buildings are very different from the cathedrals and temples of old.<<<

Actually, having been in a variety of old churches throughout Europe, I have to say that modern buildings have infinitely better ventilation. If you were to go to a Divine Liturgy, for instance, in a small 18th century Romanian church, you wold quickly find the entire place filled with smoke by the singing of the Alleluia, if not by the end of the Great Litany.

>>>He put so much of it in that when people came to receive the Eucharist, they could not see the priest and a hand came out of a cloud of smoke to offer them the bread and wine.<<<

As it should be.

[Suzanne N]

Perhaps the smoke has cleared on this topic, but I am an Eastern Orthodox incense maker, so I thought I would add my two pellets. Firstly, I want to say that I do NOT lack for sympathy for those with breathing problems as the article suggested. I care very much for my fellow human beings and I am not offended if they cannot tolerate incense, or if they simply do not like it. God bless them and I hope they too, can have space and air to breathe and worship as they must for their own health. I also say that breathing problems are a serious medical condition and those people certainly should not use incense of any kind in their homes and should be considered during worship services.

It is important to understand that of all the incidences listed in this topic, I note that almost everyone who responded is either Catholic or Anglican and as such, I presume they are using incenses procured from the abbeys and monasteries of these churches. It is important for these people to know and understand that their incenses do in fact contain some ingredients that many people may not be able to tolerate. They are NOT made from pure resins, and natural oils, and may (read: they DO) contain some synthetic fragrance oils blended with cheaper resins (copal in particular). Synthetic fragrance oils when burned certainly are not good for anyone. The reason for this is: pure oils are expensive and most incense makers cannot afford them, even those that operate on an "abbey/monastery budget".

In the Orthodox churches, including the Coptic church, our incenses are made from high grade frankincense and/or myrrh, blended with all natural essence oils. I had to laugh when someone said that "3 Kings" was the "scent of heaven" or something like that. 3 Kings brand is one of the worst offenders and I wouldn't light that stuff in anyone's prison cell, much less a church.

Even the Copts love to buy batches of incense from Mt. Athos, because they know it's the best money can buy. Besides Mt. Athos, the only other truly pure option is true desert Christian style bahkhoor from Ethiopia or Egypt.

But once the charcoal is lit, the charcoal is not "burning" in the true sense of the word. Charcoal is, properly, wood that is ALREADY burnt. Therefore, it is simply re-heated and the only thing burning is the resin and fragrance oils that the resin might be scented with. These are certainly not harmful in moderate quantities. The latest "research" to which this original article refers was ONE study, and in that study, only Chinese, Malaysian and Indian incense STICKS were surveyed. This is hardly proof that "high church" incense is harmful...that's like comparing veggie oil and car oil, and saying they are the same thing because both are called "oil". That's just dumb!

For the record, no priest in his right mind should burn these "flavors" because most people, especially in the West, cannot tolerate them:
Cassia or any cinnamon
Bergamot
Gardenia (great in flower form, but lays like an incense form of a burial shroud)
"pure" Rose ---these are not "pure"---they are cheap, cut, synthetic rose scent....real rose attar costs about $800 per ounce

The reason westerners cannot tolerate these scents is two-fold:
1. They have lost their sense of smell --- the sense of smell is the most devalued, ridiculed, underestimated sense that humans possess, and westerners hate their sense of smell more than most other cultures. If you doubt it, stand in a market place in the east and see how long you last. The easterner will stand there all day, unaffected and unoffended. The westerner is offended by everything he smells and therefore, all smells to him/her seem "bad" or "offensive".
2. Westerners are used to highly santized, highly pristine conditions and would not know the difference between burning cinnamon and burning bergamot. But because these very natural scents are not commonplace in their world, they react to them --- in the middle east, these scents are common and people are used to it.

For the priest who wants to be considerate of his congregation and still burn incense: train your altar servers how to light charcoal (from the edge, not the center) and to do it OUTSIDE until it stops smoking. For "sensitive" noses, chests, and coughers: do NOT use powdered incense. Use true, pure resin incense, that has been blended (if at all) with only real botanical oils. Burn only ONE or TWO pellet)s) at a time, if your bishop will allow that and bless for that. Have a back door or window open somewhere in the building.

Beyond this, the article's author has a personal issue and therefore assumes that hordes and hordes of people share her personal burden, and uses a lot of rhetoric in her article. "Many people..." "Lots of people"... She assumes to speak for these "many people" and puts it forth that she is their spokesperson. Many a prohibition law was passed using this very same technique.

I always find it interesting that when an American decides something is "unhealthful" or "distasteful", they go on missions to save others (especially in other countries) from themselves by banning said unhealthful or distasteful thing.

O, Lord, have mercy upon me, and bless these people, and keep them as far away from me as possible. That's my prayer. May it rise as incense before Thee, O Lord...

The old joke about St. Peter at the gates, asking "Smoking or Non?" takes on a whole new meaning here, ecumenically speaking.

God bless you whichever you are.

[Rob G]

Very helpful and interesting post, Suzanne. Thanks for your two pellets!

Malachi 1:11 -- '"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.'

This is, of course a prophecy of the new covenant, and as such implies that the matter of incense is not a superfluous one.

[Stuart Koehl]

I don't think anyone here ever said anything positive about Three Kings, other than that my former pastor, who was allergic to most anything, found it the least irritating to his sinuses. My own preference is for traditional Middle Eastern incense, Mt.Athos, in my opinion, making the best of the best. One thing few people realize is the better the incense, the less you have to use. A common error of young altar boys is covering the coals with a big spoonful of nuggets, which then melt and smother the coals. With really good incense, a pinch or two is all you need. Also, be sure to scrape the coals to remove residue before returning the censer to its stand. This ensures fresh, hot coals the next time you add incense.

As to Westerners losing their sense of smell, most of the Orthodox I know are Westerners, having been born and raised in this country. A good proportion of them, myself included, were not born into the Orthodox faith, and yet their appreciation of incense is as good as any monk's from Solovki to Athos.

The Western Church has always, to the best of my knowledge, used incense in a different fashion from the Eastern Churches, and thus has always favored finely granulated forms that burn rapidly but dissipate equally rapidly. They also seem always to have had a penchant for "flavors", through why that is, I do not know. Western use of incense was, at one time, as lavish as that in the Eastern Churches. The rubrics of the Sarum Rite in particular called for multiple censers and incensations throughout the Mass.

On the Western fetish for hygiene, I always laugh when I see a Latin deacon standing alongside the priest with a linen cloth, furiously wiping down the reliquary the priest is holding after each person kisses it. Then there are the looks of distaste from visitors after watching us receive Communion from the spoon (especially after some little kid with yellow elevens clamps down on it and wipes it clean). This is apparently what led French missionaries to convince the Melkites to administer communion through intinction, cutting the Prospora into julienne strips that are dipped in the Chalice.

Then there are those special dispensations Latin bishops give out each flu season, allowing priests to administer communion under the species of the Precious Body, in order to avoid the risk of contagion from the Chalice. If it were that great a risk, we'd all be dead by now.

Then, of course, there are the lipstick smudgies on the icons.

[Peter Gardner]

I'm told my great-great-great-godfather (a deacon at St. John's cathedral in DC) is adamantly opposed to the wearing of lipstick in church, lest the spoon become defiled with pig fat.

[Suzanne N]

For Rob G: AMIN! Thanks for that scripture reference! Very appropriate to the topic !

:)

For Stuart: I don't wear lipstick, but I certainly understand why the other ladies do (I am a lady and we are prone to wanting to look our best -for some that means lipstick, God bless 'em) I also understand why our priests/bishops hate it...God bless 'em. But Chapstick is just as bad even though it has no color, and I can spot a Chapstick smudge a mile away!
Wisdom! Let us attend and do away with all chapstick wearers. Anathema!

Stuart, I did not mean to give offense with my comments about westerners. I am speaking from a perfumer's point of view, which is much different than that of a layperson who has no working familiarity with scent or perfumes. If it makes you feel any better, the perfumers of Dubai (UAE) are IN LOVE, absolute pure LOVE, with synthetic, frankly BAD, fragrance oils. I was speaking about the sensitivity of the sense of smell that comes from culture, heritage and toilet-training. (that's a joke, Stuart) Americans and most western Europeans have noses that have been trained by Glade, Re-nuzit and the perfumer's equivalent of MIB (men in black.) ---the chemists who work to create the smells which are most marketable in the west. These scents most definitely are NOT true cassia, bergamot or true rose attar. These scents are completely synthetic, highly toxic when burned, and not at all like their natural counterparts. All I am saying is that westerners, being who they are, (which is fine and there is nothing wrong with that) cannot distinguish a rose attar from a rose synthetic, except to tell us that true "rose attar" is too "heavy". Well...God bless 'em, they don't know a good smell from a bad one.

There IS a difference between east and west, whether you want to admit it or not Stuart, and it has to do with perception, clarity and form. These are the tools of the perfumers trade. The bottom line is: Americans, Germans and Brits think that Christmas smells like pumpkins, apple spice, and clove studded oranges. Easterners think it smells what it should be: frankincense and myrrh. But trying playing THAT in Peoria.

God bless Peoria.

[Suzanne N]

Sorry to have to add : One last thought and I will leave this alone. The same people who complain about incense and "smoke" in church will pollute a bathroom with aerosol spray cans filled with synthetic fragrances, to cover the smell of their own humanity. In my opinion, as a perfumer, there is something really wierd about that.

People in the west have been carefully trained by western cosmetic companies, and chemical companies, to "appreciate" those smells which sell well. And they "react" to organic, natural smells/fragrances that are completely harmless.
But God bless them too.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>If it makes you feel any better, the perfumers of Dubai (UAE) are IN LOVE, absolute pure LOVE, with synthetic, frankly BAD, fragrance oils.<<<

My daughter lives across the hall from a nice girl from Dubai. I will have to check out this theory.

>>>There IS a difference between east and west, whether you want to admit it or not Stuart, and it has to do with perception, clarity and form. These are the tools of the perfumers trade. The bottom line is: Americans, Germans and Brits think that Christmas smells like pumpkins, apple spice, and clove studded oranges.<<<

Well, it was rather hard to acquire frankincense and myrrh north of the Alps, so the poor schlubs made do with what they had. If Jesus had been born in Little Dorking instead of Bethlehem, cinnamon and cloves would be the authentic smell of Christmas. But then, these were only available to the aristocracy until the 18th century, so I imagine that for most people, Christmas smelled like the other 364 days of the year--bad.

As I said, I have no quarrel with the use of authentic resin-based incense. In fact, I prefer it. I tend not to like artificially scented incense, and the bulk of my Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic friends concur. I would say that taste in incense is thus a matter of habituation rather than culture. One can appreciate the smell of mulled apple cider AND that of pure frankincense and myrrh, each in its proper context.

>>>And they "react" to organic, natural smells/fragrances that are completely harmless. <<<

My former pastor, a second generation Carpatho-Rusyn, is allergic to both natural and artificial scents--as well as to almost everything else in the world. So for him, an empirical investigation of the available options is what led him to Three Kings. He doesn't really like the smell, but at least he doesn't go into anaphylactic shock whenever someone hands him the kadilo.

[Bobby Neal Winters]

>>So for him, an empirical investigation of the available options is what led him to Three Kings. He doesn't really like the smell, but at least he doesn't go into anaphylactic shock whenever someone hands him the kadilo.
<<

Doesn't Three Kings use that in there advertisement copy?

[Rob G]

Any thoughts on scented candles, Suzanne, vis a vis their 'naturalness' or lack thereof, and their chemistry? Of course I'm not talking about liturgical use, but burning them in the home.

Regarding 'reactions' and allergies: there is a real difference between the two. What Suzanne is saying, I take it, is that many 'reactions' people have to certain scents are not truly allergies, but are a result of olfactory 'training.' A true allergy, like the one Stuart describes in his pastor, is a horse of a different color.

[W.E.D. Godbold]

Stuart, he might try using some of the new(ish) leukotriene receptor inhibitors: zafilukast (Accolate) and montelukast (Singulair). He might also find Nasalcrom useful--after a few days of administration it paralyzes the mast cells so they don't start tossing out histamine on the least bit of stimulation. (I use it propylactically during May for my allergies.) None of these compounds are habituating like steroids or the beta adrenergic antagonists.

[Judy K. Warner]

>>>If Jesus had been born in Little Dorking instead of Bethlehem, cinnamon and cloves would be the authentic smell of Christmas. <<<

Cinnamon and cloves are not grown north of the Alps. They're imported from the mysterious east, and I suppose frankincense and myrrh could have been imported too.

>>> Stuart, he might try using some of the new(ish) leukotriene receptor inhibitors: zafilukast (Accolate) and montelukast (Singulair). <<<

I second Gene's suggestion. Singulair changed my life. It doesn't seem to have any side effects, either.

[Stuart Koehl]

Cinnamon and cloves had culinary uses: they flavored and preserved food. Frankincense and myrrh did neither,and there being no real commercial use for them, were true luxury articles imported only for liturgical use. Expensive as frankincense and myrrh were in the Levant, in northern Europe they were prohibitively expensive. This may be why the Latin Church eventually found substitutes.

>>>I second Gene's suggestion. Singulair changed my life. It doesn't seem to have any side effects, either.<<<

Far be it from me to tell Father John what to do, I will ask him about it when I see him this evening.

[Suzanne N]

Stuart,

You state here:<<< Cinnamon and cloves had culinary uses: they flavored and preserved food. Frankincense and myrrh did neither,and there being no real commercial use for them, were true luxury articles imported only for liturgical use.>>>

Actually, this is untrue. Frankincense and myrrh have been used for centuries as medicinal balms and fumigants, as well as in food --- both are non-toxic, can be ingested without harm (if you can stand the taste) and in the east, some people use them as chewing gum. All resins are soft enough to do this until they are "dried". At that point, it would like trying to chew rocks. Myrrh especially, since it seems to have some anti-bacterial affect on oral disease.
In Europe, pine and cedar resin came to be the popular substitutes.

Re: Dubai and the girl across the hall: is she a perfumer ? perfumerie is a chemical science, not a hobby. It's not just about what "smells good". Perfumerie as a serious study, was taken seriously for the first time by al-Khindi in the 8th century. Many advances in chemistry came from it, including the invention of steam distillation by Avicenna.

The fact is that human nose is a spectrometer. (Which is a miracle of God and goes against every law of science).
This book will explain it if you are interested: The Emperor of Scent by Chandler Burr.

For Rob G: Thank you for your response and for understanding what I am trying to say --- you are correct: a true "reaction" (allergic) is not just coughing or feeling uncomfortable . It's hives, and swelling up like the Hindenburg. This is extremely RARE. I have never seen it in 20 years of this business.

Re: scented candles and natural fragrances: I want to clarify something and that is: just because a fragrance oil is natural doesn't mean it is "good for you". For example: I have the capability to distill oil from a marijuana plant. LOL! I would never do so. THC is a harmful substance and though some people do put it in incense and candles, (believe it or not! LOL - especially in countries like the Netherlands where it is not illegal) it's "bad" for you --- LOL!

But moving on: most commercially available scented candles are made with highly diluted fragrance oils. They are usually diluted or "cut" with DPG -(dipropylene glycol). This is for 2 reasons: to allow the candle to burn safely and longer, cuts down on "smoke" from the wick and to make the fragrance oil go further. In normal, commercially available scented candles, this is perfectly fine in terms of "tolerance". Most people are not going to start coughing or "react". These candles are made with parrafin wax because it's cheaper to produce than beeswax. But if you really want to go natural, you can buy beeswax candles that are scented with natural essential oils. I haven't seen any lately but you can buy them on the internet from artisans and other outlets. Do a google search for beeswax essential oil candles

Another alternative: Use oil lamps like we Orthodox do: Get a heat tempered glass votive cup. You will need the wicks and a holder, available from any church supply.
In a cup, mix 6 parts extra virgin olive oil and add 1 part fragrance oil. Mix well. You can safely burn this and get the fragrance you want --- I hope that helps you!

Anyway God bless everyone.

[Suzanne N]

Rob - forgot: add a bit of water to the bottom of the cup. That way, the wick will extinguish safely if you run out of oil.

[W.E.D. Godbold]

The nose is actually more like a gas chromatograph than a spectrophotometer (the eyes would be a closer match to the latter). Humans have something on the order of 400 G protein-coupled receptors that can bind odorants. A plethora of binding combinations can be discerned with practice. Most people don't train their noses, but they certainly can be exercised to detect really amazing things (as Suzanne N rightly indicates).

[Rob G]

Thanks, Suzanne. Again, very helpful.

[Stuart Koehl]

>>>Another alternative: Use oil lamps like we Orthodox do: Get a heat tempered glass votive cup. You will need the wicks and a holder, available from any church supply.<<<

I like the floating wick holders, which are self-trimming.

>>>In a cup, mix 6 parts extra virgin olive oil and add 1 part fragrance oil. Mix well. You can safely burn this and get the fragrance you want --- I hope that helps you!<<<

I actually like just plain extra virgin--must be the Italian in me.

>>>This book will explain it if you are interested: The Emperor of Scent by Chandler Burr.<<<

I've heard of it. Now I'll have to track it down.

[Suzanne N]

For : W.E.D. Godbold:

God bless you Sir. I would debate you on this but I sense this is not the place. I will only say that while you are correct, insofar as "traditional thought" goes, latest research has indicated that Luca Torin's theory is in fact, correct. The scale for detection in humans is literally, limitless, and form does not follow function, as we tradtionally believed.
Again, my humble recommendation: The Emperor of Scent (*regards Luca Turin's theorem, praxis and data) by Chandler Burr.

But I would agree with you that those with the "nose" must still be trained to detect the welding of any molecular combination.
God bless you Sir, for your response and for your informative reply.

For Rob G: I'm glad it helped. God bless you also, in your pursuit of beeswax candles...perhaps you may find yourself a new master-craftsman if you cannot buy what you want. That's how I became a perfumer. :)

For Stuart: God bless --- I'm glad you appreciated the book recommendation. I like pure olive oil (no fragrance added too!) ...I have also found olive oil to be a very useful "beauty" ingredient as well as an excellent incense ingredient. ;) Maybe I am part Italian too! (I could only wish....such lovely people and culture.)

I bow out now, and leave you until next topic. I think this one has burned itself out for me. I humbly invite anyone to write to me at the e-mail address in my information linked above with any other comments, as I would very much appreciate hearing them, even if it is disagreement. I enjoy good fellowship and good natured discussion.
Best wishes and like Tiny Tim saith, "God bless us, every one!"

[Albanus]

Incense poured over your barbecue coals does wonders for chicken and lamb. You can sing "Tantum Ergo Sacramentum" while basting the bird too.